NBA 2013-2014

[smokymountainrain]

He is good enough defensively to take players away to the extent you can in the NBA. And again, no matter what you want to make of the 4 on 5 stuff, it's clearly not the case, as his floor impact is positive any way you slice it. Besides, flip him for another player and you might be playing 4 on 5 just in the other direction. Snell and Brewer still leaves you at 4 on 5 offensively, and Jimmer puts you 4 on 5 defensively. Might as well just stick with your best option at the position.



And all of that would have changed had he just subbed someone from his terrible bench for Jimmy Butler? Of course not. They got to the playoffs by playing grind-it-out defense and a big part of that was playing their best interior defender (Noah) and their best wing defender (Butler) pretty much constantly to keep their D in tact. By the time you get to the playoffs you stick with the formula and guys that got you there, especially when you have no other suitable alternatives.

MG, you know better than to piggy back fusnik for your arguments. You really believe Snell, Brewer and Jimmer are the only options Thibs has to sub for Butler? If fusnik said it, there is likely a major flaw. C'mon, man.

You could play a combination of Hinrich, Augustin and Dunleavy. You could slide Taj Gibson over to the three and have him play with Boozer and Noah against certain Wizards lineups. To think Jimmer, Brewer and Snell are the only options, is just silly and makes no sense.

Ultimately, you simply aren't going to be able to win many games when you have a wing playing 40+ minutes a game and shooting sub 40 and 30. For Thibs to stick with Butler without attempting something different, he sealed his team's fate and the results bear that out.

[MarkGrace]

MG, you know better than to piggy back fusnik for your arguments. You really believe Snell, Brewer and Jimmer are the only options Thibs has to sub for Butler? If fusnik said it, there is likely a major flaw. C'mon, man.

You could play a combination of Hinrich, Augustin and Dunleavy. You could slide Taj Gibson over to the three and have him play with Boozer and Noah against certain Wizards lineups. To think Jimmer, Brewer and Snell are the only options, is just silly and makes no sense.

If Butler is a waste of space on the basketball floor, what exactly are those three? He's the best player in that group. Sure you can try and shuffle them around, but what is the net gain? Augustin had exactly 1 out of 5 games in the series where he was above 30% from the floor. He was struggling as much as anyone offensively. So you give him more minutes at the 1 and Hinrich more at the 2, and achieve exactly what over the Hinrich/Butler/Dunleavy group you are already playing? You get no more on offense, but lose more on defense. If we're just talking about more minutes to Dunleavy, that could have been accomplished without any impact to Butler's minutes (he's also the worst defender in that bunch, which in Thibs world is always going to keep you closer to the minutes Boozer plays than the minutes Noah and Butler play). And then you're worried about offense but want to slide Taj Gibson over to the 3? Who exactly is going to even guard Taj Gibson out on the perimeter? He's sub 40% eFG on jumpshots and didn't hit a 3pter all year (and wisely didn't attempt many). He'll crush your floor-spacing even more than Butler, who can at least occasionally knock down an outside shot. Gibson is a defensive ace on the interior, not someone you go stick out at the 3 because your offense stinks.

All these guys were being tried to some degree or another, so it's not like there was a solution in reallocating minutes among them. The only really different look they could get was by trying someone new. Of course they didn't really have anyone worth trying.

Ultimately, you simply aren't going to be able to win many games when you have a wing playing 40+ minutes a game and shooting sub 40 and 30. For Thibs to stick with Butler without attempting something different, he sealed his team's fate and the results bear that out.

So again, taking minutes from Butler was going to change their fate and results? Of course not. They won a bunch of games and overachieved with a particular formula, and they stuck with it. Didn't really have much alternative but to keep going with what got them there.

[smokymountainrain]

If Butler is a waste of space on the basketball floor, what exactly are those three? He's the best player in that group. Sure you can try and shuffle them around, but what is the net gain? Augustin had exactly 1 out of 5 games in the series where he was above 30% from the floor. He was struggling as much as anyone offensively. So you give him more minutes at the 1 and Hinrich more at the 2, and achieve exactly what over the Hinrich/Butler/Dunleavy group you are already playing? You get no more on offense, but lose more on defense. If we're just talking about more minutes to Dunleavy, that could have been accomplished without any impact to Butler's minutes (he's also the worst defender in that bunch, which in Thibs world is always going to keep you closer to the minutes Boozer plays than the minutes Noah and Butler play). And then you're worried about offense but want to slide Taj Gibson over to the 3? Who exactly is going to even guard Taj Gibson out on the perimeter? He's sub 40% eFG on jumpshots and didn't hit a 3pter all year (and wisely didn't attempt many). He'll crush your floor-spacing even more than Butler, who can at least occasionally knock down an outside shot. Gibson is a defensive ace on the interior, not someone you go stick out at the 3 because your offense stinks.

All these guys were being tried to some degree or another, so it's not like there was a solution in reallocating minutes among them. The only really different look they could get was by trying someone new. Of course they didn't really have anyone worth trying.



So again, taking minutes from Butler was going to change their fate and results? Of course not. They won a bunch of games and overachieved with a particular formula, and they stuck with it. Didn't really have much alternative but to keep going with what got them there.

We may have to agree to disagree on this point. I think there is a strong possibility that if you spread the minutes around a bit more, you get better production both offensively and defensively from Butler for the minutes he's out there. We know how bad he was offensively, but his main defensive assignments in Beal and Ariza both had a very good series as well. I think there is something to be said for having fresh legs. Apparently like you, Thibs disagrees and now the Wizards get to rest up a little as they await the Pacers/Hawks winnner.

[fusnik]

MG, you know better than to piggy back fusnik for your arguments. You really believe Snell, Brewer and Jimmer are the only options Thibs has to sub for Butler? If fusnik said it, there is likely a major flaw. C'mon, man.

You could play a combination of Hinrich, Augustin and Dunleavy. You could slide Taj Gibson over to the three and have him play with Boozer and Noah against certain Wizards lineups. To think Jimmer, Brewer and Snell are the only options, is just silly and makes no sense.

Ultimately, you simply aren't going to be able to win many games when you have a wing playing 40+ minutes a game and shooting sub 40 and 30. For Thibs to stick with Butler without attempting something different, he sealed his team's fate and the results bear that out.

Do you even read some of the shit you post?

Taj to the 3? So you essentially lose any offensive production out of that spot and hurt yourself defensively by taking a premier post defender and have him chase Ariza around the court?

Heinrich - Augustin - Dunleavy? Lol. Yeah give that group tons of minutes.

Two huge defensively liabilities and Augustin was horrible offensively this series.

Instead of doubling dumb on this dumb shit why don't you just admit you are mad at Thibs for not playing Jimmer. This is a BYU board, you won't get much flack for saying that as opposed to this madness.

[cougjunkie]

We may have to agree to disagree on this point. I think there is a strong possibility that if you spread the minutes around a bit more, you get better production both offensively and defensively from Butler for the minutes he's out there. We know how bad he was offensively, but his main defensive assignments in Beal and Ariza both had a very good series as well. I think there is something to be said for having fresh legs. Apparently like you, Thibs disagrees and now the Wizards get to rest up a little as they await the Pacers/Hawks winnner.

Butler admitted he was exhausted after game three. So tired that he was resting on thr offensive end. Thibs told him he needed to push through it and to play both ends of the floor equally hard. Butler said he wasn't sure he could do that.

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[smokymountainrain]

Butler admitted he was exhausted after game three. So tired that he was resting on thr offensive end. Thibs told him he needed to push through it and to play both ends of the floor equally hard. Butler said he wasn't sure he could do that.

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Yep, it's certainly not rocket science.

[MarkGrace]

Yep, it's certainly not rocket science.

I think that tells us all we need to know about the alternatives Thibs had. And it's certainly hard to disagree with anything there. Nothing short of Derrick Rose was going to change the outcome of this series, and giving DJ Augustin more minutes at the 1 and playing Taj Gibson at the 3 certainly wasn't going to do anything.

[smokymountainrain]

I think that tells us all we need to know about the alternatives Thibs had. And it's certainly hard to disagree with anything there. Nothing short of Derrick Rose was going to change the outcome of this series, and giving DJ Augustin more minutes at the 1 and playing Taj Gibson at the 3 certainly wasn't going to do anything.

You could be right, but running in your players into the ground certainly wasn't working, so it would at least be worth a shot to switch things up a little and see what happens. Thibs wasn't willing to be flexible and now he's going home. To say the Bulls had no chance in this series, is silly talk since they were favored to win.

[wapiti]

I think that tells us all we need to know about the alternatives Thibs had. And it's certainly hard to disagree with anything there. Nothing short of Derrick Rose was going to change the outcome of this series, and giving DJ Augustin more minutes at the 1 and playing Taj Gibson at the 3 certainly wasn't going to do anything.

Especially with Taj Gibson in the locker room.

If I were Thibs, however, I would have tried "something" for short stretches to see if I could get a spark. The obvious "something" is give Jimmy Butler an occasional rest and see if Jimmer could light an offensive spark. Admittedly, it probably wouldn't have worked. But the status quo didn't work either and that was clear by the end of game 2.

[MarkGrace]

You could be right, but running in your players into the ground certainly wasn't working, so it would at least be worth a shot to switch things up a little and see what happens. Thibs wasn't willing to be flexible and now he's going home. To say the Bulls had no chance in this series, is silly talk since they were favored to win.

They were favored because of their superior record in the regular season, and that was achieved by playing Butler 40 mins a night to help anchor their defense with Noah. When you hit the playoffs you run with brought you there. Watching this series I think they were clearly overmatched and just overachieved during the regular season. They just didn't have enough horses on offense to make a difference.

[CardiacCoug]

Crazy comeback by the Nets here.

[cougjunkie]

So you're being hyperbolic just to be hyperbolic? I'd love to find you an instance, but he's just not a bad player to begin with. Butler is exactly the kind of player that is becomes increasingly valued as overall court impact gets more measurable. By defensive rpm he ranks 6th among all SG's in the league, 8th in war and 9th in overall rpm. What is so waste of space about that? What's so offensively bad about that type of production? Nothing that I can see other than the fact that he occupies a spot where jimmer could arguably get minutes. But I guess that's not what you're getting at.

At any rate, the bulls offense and defense was definitely bad, but one look down that bench would tell you there weren't many options. And thibs is a defense first guy that will live or die on that end of the court, and they certainly weren't getting better there by removing their best perimeter defender. I hardly see much to be surprised at in this equation.

The more I look in to this the more I have to disagree with you.

You do realize that Mike Dunleavy is also rated in the top 6 of Defensive RPM and WAR?

Are you telling me that Dunleavy is an elite defender in the NBA?

Dirk is top 15, the guy that just gave up 17 and 12 to Tiago Splitter.

Derek Fisher is the 3rd best defensive point guard in the NBA?

Sorry but that stat means less and less.

Hinrich is also top 6, and the NBA defensive player of the year Joakim Noah is 10th.

[MarkGrace]

The more I look in to this the more I have to disagree with you.

You do realize that Mike Dunleavy is also rated in the top 6 of Defensive RPM and WAR?

Are you telling me that Dunleavy is an elite defender in the NBA?

Dirk is top 15, the guy that just gave up 17 and 12 to Tiago Splitter.

Derek Fisher is the 3rd best defensive point guard in the NBA?

Sorry but that stat means less and less.

Hinrich is also top 6, and the NBA defensive player of the year Joakim Noah is 10th.

I don't think anyone believes it's perfect. Pretty much like everything.

[smokymountainrain]

I don't think anyone believes it's perfect. Pretty much like everything.

So you admit it was a mistake to play Butler 44 minutes a game in that playoff series. Good. It took us a while to arrive at this point, but at least we got here.

[MarkGrace]

So you admit it was a mistake to play Butler 44 minutes a game in that playoff series. Good. It took us a while to arrive at this point, but at least we got here.

Only if you admit your rampant hyperbole was related to your emotion for Jimmer.