Let's put the Kobe/LeBron thing in perspective

[TripletDaddy]

Jordan had no rivals

Karla Knafel?

[Sizzle]

Karla Knafel?

Rival =/= Mistress.

[TripletDaddy]

Rival =/= Mistress.

Jordan ===D Mistress

[MarkGrace]

Funny drivel.

Simmons is so not funny it's funny, but the only interesting thing he's every written actually pertains to this discussion, so I'm posting it:

"Little-known fact: NBA stats are completely screwed up from 1959 to '67. Teams were running and gunning at a breathtaking pace. For instance, the 1960 Celtics scored 124.5 points per game and averaged nearly 120 shots a game, but since the shooters weren't as good back then (the Celts only shot 41 percent that year, which also led the league), they also averaged a whopping 80.2 rebounds per game. To put that in perspective, Phoenix [this season] led the league with 111.9 points and 85 shots per game, but they only averaged 44.1 rebounds per game because everyone can make a jumper now and it's not run-and-gun.

Take Oscar's first five years compared with Magic's first five years. From 1961 to 1965, Oscar averaged 30.3 points, 10.4 assists and 10.6 rebounds ... but he was the 17th-best rebounder in the league over that time (in an eight-team league) and the third-best rebounder on his own team (behind Wayne Embry and Jerry Lucas). Magic averaged 18.2 points, 10.3 assists and 8.0 rebounds ... he was the 36th-best rebounder in the league over that stretch (in a 23-team league) and the second-best on his own team (behind that ninny Kareem). Oscar's team averaged 69 rebounds a game 1961-65; Magic's team averaged 45 a game.

Not to infringe on Hollinger's territory here ... but if you prorated Magic's stats to the run-and-gun 1961-65 era, they would look something like this: 21 points, 12 assists and 12 rebounds per game. Even if you transported the 1987-90 Fat Lever (18.9 points, 8.9 rebounds, 7.5 assists, 19th-ranked rebounder), he would have matched all of Oscar's numbers except for the scoring. But if you brought Oscar to the modern era? His rebounding per game would have dropped into the 7-8 range and the "Who was the only NBA player to average a triple-double?" trivia question wouldn't exist. It's true."

It's a neat factoid that the Big O is the only player to average a triple-double, but I'm unconvinced that his season is all it's cracked up to be. As Simmons notes, when you adjust for pace and opportunity, Magic put up seasons that were just as impressive. Jordan's 33/8/8 season and Bron's recent 30/8/7 are also comparable to any Big O season if you ask me.

[il Padrino Ute]

Watered down? The seasons and playoffs were shorter then. And the Celtics by far were the head of the class back then. The teams sucked outside of Boston.

Yes. Watered down. Fewer teams = better players throughout the league. No free agency during that time either and Boston was better at evaluating talent. The Lakers and Celtics of the 80s would have destroyed the Bulls of the 90s for the same reason.

Those Bulls teams were dominant, but not at the same level, IMO.

[Surfah]

Yes. Watered down. Fewer teams = better players throughout the league. No free agency during that time either and Boston was better at evaluating talent. The Lakers and Celtics of the 80s would have destroyed the Bulls of the 90s for the same reason.

Those Bulls teams were dominant, but not at the same level, IMO.

I'll concede that the Lakers/Celtics of the 80's would have destroyed the Bulls of the 90's. But I still think that the early Celtics and Lakers dynasties were overrated.

[il Padrino Ute]

I'll concede that the Lakers/Celtics of the 80's would have destroyed the Bulls of the 90's. But I still think that the early Celtics and Lakers dynasties were overrated.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about those teams. No problem with that..

[cougjunkie]

First of all the discussion about best player of all time starts and stops with Michael Jordan. Magic was nice, Kareem ws good, Kobe has been spectacular at times, but MJ is the greatest player in NBA history.

With that being said, I dont know who I would pick if I were building a franchise. If I wanted to put people in seats I easily take Kobe or Lebron. If I wanted to win championships I take Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is one of the greatest defenders in NBA history, and he has an offensive game to match. I know I am biased but I still think that if you put Tim Duncan on an average NBA team he would be able to do more with those players than either Kobe or Lebron would.

[il Padrino Ute]

First of all the discussion about best player of all time starts and stops with Michael Jordan.

I don't necessarily disagree, but how do you define "best player of all time"?

[MarkGrace]

First of all the discussion about best player of all time starts and stops with Michael Jordan. Magic was nice, Kareem ws good, Kobe has been spectacular at times, but MJ is the greatest player in NBA history.

Agree.

If I wanted to win championships I take Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is one of the greatest defenders in NBA history, and he has an offensive game to match. I know I am biased but I still think that if you put Tim Duncan on an average NBA team he would be able to do more with those players than either Kobe or Lebron would.

Also agree.

[TripletDaddy]

First of all the discussion about best player of all time starts and stops with Michael Jordan. Magic was nice, Kareem ws good, Kobe has been spectacular at times, but MJ is the greatest player in NBA history.

walk us through this. I laid out a pretty factual case for Kareem. What has MJ done that Kareem has *clearly* not done. It isnt like we are comparing apples and oranges. Your imply a massive chasm between Jordan and the next guy, as though MJ won 30 rings and averaged 1000 ppg.

what are MJ's accomplishments that distinguish him so easily?

remember, the question here isn't whether MJ isn't in the conversation for greatest of all time. nobody is arguing that he isn't a likely candidate. why exactly does it begin and end with MJ?

also, I notice you specified NBA, not basketball in general. As we know, MJ's college career was decent (in terms of superstars) and his HS career was pretty uneventful...as we know, he didnt even make the team at first.

[cougjunkie]

walk us through this. I laid out a pretty factual case for Kareem. What has MJ done that Kareem has *clearly* not done. It isnt like we are comparing apples and oranges. Your imply a massive chasm between Jordan and the next guy, as though MJ won 30 rings and averaged 1000 ppg.

what are MJ's accomplishments that distinguish him so easily?

remember, the question here isn't whether MJ isn't in the conversation for greatest of all time. nobody is arguing that he isn't a likely candidate. why exactly does it begin and end with MJ?

also, I notice you specified NBA, not basketball in general. As we know, MJ's college career was decent (in terms of superstars) and his HS career was pretty uneventful...as we know, he didnt even make the team at first.

Maybe it is because of I am to young to remember much about Kareem but lets look at this way.

Did MJ ever play with someone as good as Magic Johnson? (not even close)
Did MJ ever play with someone as good as James Worthy? (Pippen and Worthy are probably close)
Did MJ ever play with someone as good as Mike Penberthy? (I know he is your favorite laker)

Jordan never had a dominant center, in fact he won titles in a league that had David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Shaq with Bill Cartwright, Bill Wennington, Wil Perdue, and Luc Longley at center.

Jordan never played with a great point guard.

No way do you think that the Bulls teams with Jordan are better than the great Lakers teams.

So with all that being said, they have an equal number of titles eventhough Kareem obviously was on better teams, Jordan has better career scoring averages by almost 6 points per game and face it if he decided to play 20+ years like Kareem he would have broken his scoring record. You dont think Karl Malone should be considered for the greatest NBA player of all time do you? Because he is 2nd on the scoring list.

Also Space Jam was better than Airplane!

[TripletDaddy]

Maybe it is because of I am to young to remember much about Kareem but lets look at this way.

I think this is it.

Most of the CB set are under 30. They are from the Jordan era. You talk to guys from Jax or Riley era and they are not stating the case as emphatically as the youngsters.

In fact, Jax has been asked this question numerous times. He almost always is universal in his response....MJ is definitely in the conversation. Then he goes on to list the heavies of his era....Earl the Pearl, Willis Reed, Wilt, Russell, etc...

Ultimately, there is no way to prove, but if you look across eras, very few of the older gen declare MJ the best in the sense that it is without debate, end of story, no questions asked.

I was lucky enough to be a teen in the 80s Lakers/Celt era. My family had tickets to the Forum. So that is what I remember. It is my baseline. For guys that are my age, there was no ESPN or SportsCenter, so you watched the games on tape delay later in the evening. People would listen to the games on the radio...even as recently as the 80s. There was no internet or global Nike marketing machine (something that benefitted the Jordan mystique greatly).

Space Jam was weak....Shawn Bradley. Enough said. Airplane! was a far superior product.

Get back to me when MJ does a movie with Bruce Lee, sucka.





the best part about this insanely rad clip is right after Kareem kicks Bruce Lee in the chest (while sitting in the chair), Bruce all of a sudden has this black footprint on his chest. Because, you know, black people rubs off on your clothes.

[YOUTUBE]id1L-nFVlao[/YOUTUBE]

[TripletDaddy]

Contrast Kareem fighting Bruce Lee with MJ learning how to moonwalk from Michael Jackson....er.....nice.

[YOUTUBE]iL_NzaDv4yY&[/YOUTUBE]

[TripletDaddy]

update: that Jam video had a surprise appearance by Kriss Kross. I had forgotten about that, so no fair including that in the overall coolness factor.