Let's put the Kobe/LeBron thing in perspective

[SoCalCoug]

Here are some career stats:

Michael Jordan: 30.1 pts., 49.7% FG, 85.3% FT, 32.7% 3-pt., 6.2 reb., 5.3 ast., 2.3 stl., .83 blk.

Magic Johnson: 19.5 pts., 52% FG, 84.8% FT, 30.3% 3-pt., 7.2 reb., 11.2 ast., 1.9 stl., .4 blk.

Larry Bird: 24.3 pts., 49.6% FG, 88.6% FT, 37.6% 3-pt., 10.0 reb., 6.3 ast., 1.7 stl., .84 blk.

Wilt Chamberlain: 30.1 pts., 54.0% FG, 51.1% FT, 22.9 reb., 4.4 ast.

Kobe Bryant: 25.0 pts., 45.3% FG, 83.9% FT, 34.0% 3-pt., 5.3 reb., 4.6 ast., 1.5 stl., .58 blk.

LeBron James: 27.3 pts., 46.7% FG, 72.8% FT, 32.4% 3-pt., 6.9 reb., 6.6 ast., 1.77 stl, .80 blk.

[TripletDaddy]

Here are some career stats:

Michael Jordan: 30.1 pts., 49.7% FG, 85.3% FT, 32.7% 3-pt., 6.2 reb., 5.3 ast., 2.3 stl., .83 blk.

Magic Johnson: 19.5 pts., 52% FG, 84.8% FT, 30.3% 3-pt., 7.2 reb., 11.2 ast., 1.9 stl., .4 blk.

Larry Bird: 24.3 pts., 49.6% FG, 88.6% FT, 37.6% 3-pt., 10.0 reb., 6.3 ast., 1.7 stl., .84 blk.

Wilt Chamberlain: 30.1 pts., 54.0% FG, 51.1% FT, 22.9 reb., 4.4 ast.

Kobe Bryant: 25.0 pts., 45.3% FG, 83.9% FT, 34.0% 3-pt., 5.3 reb., 4.6 ast., 1.5 stl., .58 blk.

LeBron James: 27.3 pts., 46.7% FG, 72.8% FT, 32.4% 3-pt., 6.9 reb., 6.6 ast., 1.77 stl, .80 blk.

Also:

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[creekster]

Here are some career stats:

Michael Jordan: 30.1 pts., 49.7% FG, 85.3% FT, 32.7% 3-pt., 6.2 reb., 5.3 ast., 2.3 stl., .83 blk.

Magic Johnson: 19.5 pts., 52% FG, 84.8% FT, 30.3% 3-pt., 7.2 reb., 11.2 ast., 1.9 stl., .4 blk.

Larry Bird: 24.3 pts., 49.6% FG, 88.6% FT, 37.6% 3-pt., 10.0 reb., 6.3 ast., 1.7 stl., .84 blk.

Wilt Chamberlain: 30.1 pts., 54.0% FG, 51.1% FT, 22.9 reb., 4.4 ast.

Kobe Bryant: 25.0 pts., 45.3% FG, 83.9% FT, 34.0% 3-pt., 5.3 reb., 4.6 ast., 1.5 stl., .58 blk.

LeBron James: 27.3 pts., 46.7% FG, 72.8% FT, 32.4% 3-pt., 6.9 reb., 6.6 ast., 1.77 stl, .80 blk.

How about the big O?
G
1,040 FG% .485 . FT% 838 Rebs7,804 RPG 7.5 Asts 9,887 A PG 9.5 Pts 26,710 PPG25.7

[Sizzle]

Here are some career stats:

Michael Jordan: 30.1 pts., 49.7% FG, 85.3% FT, 32.7% 3-pt., 6.2 reb., 5.3 ast., 2.3 stl., .83 blk.

Magic Johnson: 19.5 pts., 52% FG, 84.8% FT, 30.3% 3-pt., 7.2 reb., 11.2 ast., 1.9 stl., .4 blk.

Larry Bird: 24.3 pts., 49.6% FG, 88.6% FT, 37.6% 3-pt., 10.0 reb., 6.3 ast., 1.7 stl., .84 blk.

Wilt Chamberlain: 30.1 pts., 54.0% FG, 51.1% FT, 22.9 reb., 4.4 ast.

Kobe Bryant: 25.0 pts., 45.3% FG, 83.9% FT, 34.0% 3-pt., 5.3 reb., 4.6 ast., 1.5 stl., .58 blk.

LeBron James: 27.3 pts., 46.7% FG, 72.8% FT, 32.4% 3-pt., 6.9 reb., 6.6 ast., 1.77 stl, .80 blk.

Great. LeBron is 24. The fact that he has those career averages at age 24 is remarkable. He has carried a team to the Finals at 24. While Bird, Magic and Kobe had all made Finals by the time they were 24, none of them carried their teams to the Finals the way LeBron did. That isn't to say that they weren't/aren't special players because they all are. The fact that at this juncture in his career Lebron is putting up numbers comparable to career totals for Jordan, Magic, Kobe and Bird is very impressive and says a lot, in my opinion, about how special his career may end up being.

[creekster]

Great. LeBron is 24. The fact that he has those career averages at age 24 is remarkable. He has carried a team to the Finals at 24. While Bird, Magic and Kobe had all made Finals by the time they were 24, none of them carried their teams to the Finals the way LeBron did. That isn't to say that they weren't/aren't special players because they all are. The fact that at this juncture in his career Lebron is putting up numbers comparable to career totals for Jordan, Magic, Kobe and Bird is very impressive and says a lot, in my opinion, about how special his career may end up being.

Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double during his second season in the NBA.

[MarkGrace]

Everyone knows Oscar's stats don't count. They played to like a pace factor of a thousand in those days. His per game averages are two games worth.

[TripletDaddy]

Great. LeBron is 24. The fact that he has those career averages at age 24 is remarkable. He has carried a team to the Finals at 24. While Bird, Magic and Kobe had all made Finals by the time they were 24, none of them carried their teams to the Finals the way LeBron did. That isn't to say that they weren't/aren't special players because they all are. The fact that at this juncture in his career Lebron is putting up numbers comparable to career totals for Jordan, Magic, Kobe and Bird is very impressive and says a lot, in my opinion, about how special his career may end up being.

I agree with this for the most part, except for the glaring omission of Magic Johnson. Magic not only carried team, he basically won the championship for them. In his rookie season, he was an All-Star starter. Also, he was the NBA Finals MVP....the only person to ever be the Finals MVP as a rookie. Chew on that for a second. A ROOKIE is the Finals MVP. A Finals that featured Kareem and Dr J. The same rookie that averaged 18-7-7 in his first year. And by the way, Magic clinched that Finals victory in Game 6 (after Kareem was injured in Game 5 and DNP for Game 6) by playing center, guard, and forward. His stat line for that series clinching Game 6?.....42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals.

LBJ is the flavor of the day. Until he starts winning rings, who cares about how many points he can jack up. He has the talent to be one of the greatest of all time. But he needs to cash at least one in sooner or later.

[creekster]

Everyone knows Oscar's stats don't count. They played to like a pace factor of a thousand in those days. His per game averages are two games worth.

WHat does that eman? He played when Wilt and Russell played. What are you talking about?

[ERCougar]

Everyone knows Oscar's stats don't count. They played to like a pace factor of a thousand in those days. His per game averages are two games worth.

This is what happens when baseball fans invade the basketball world.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

LBJ is the flavor of the day. Until he starts winning rings, who cares about how many points he can jack up. He has the talent to be one of the greatest of all time. But he needs to cash at least one in sooner or later.

You put so much emphasis on rings, then shouldn't you be pitching for Wade at this point?
Career numbers
24.5 ppg, 6.6 assists, 4.9 rebounds, 1.79 steals 48% fg.

Numbers very comparable or better than Kobe's and both can't win a ring without Shaq. DDD you should be on the Wade-wagon.

[TripletDaddy]

You put so much emphasis on rings, then shouldn't you be pitching for Wade at this point?
Career numbers
24.5 ppg, 6.6 assists, 4.9 rebounds, 1.79 steals 48% fg.

Numbers very comparable or better than Kobe's and both can't win a ring without Shaq. DDD you should be on the Wade-wagon.

I put emphasis on rings only when discussing superlatives....greatest of all time stuff.

I put zero emphasis on the "cant win without Shaq" argument, since Magic didnt win a single ring without Kareem and Worthy. MJ needed Pippen. Bird needed McHale and Parish. etc etc. Shaq needed Kobe and Wade. I never get the point of "didn't win a ring without X Y or Z." If Kobe wins a ring this year, well he had Odom and Gasol. KG won a ring last year...but he needed Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. Chamberlain needed West. Nobody wins rings alone. You need major firepower all around you. Shaq didnt win any rings alone, either.

To your point about Wade, I think he ia great player. And he was money in the Finals vs Dallas. However, does anyone think he is in the conversation for greatest of all-time? Maybe that isnt what you were talking about, though.

I think if both careers ended right now, Wade would be just fine walking away with one ring but fewer 50 point games than LBJ. LBJ, who knows, but I doubt he would be happy with a near triple double in the MSG but zero rings. Do you think Wade would prefer to walk away right now with LBJ's legacy and miss out on the one ring that he earned with Miami?

I have noticed that the guys that lobby hardest on the board against the rings theory....are Jazz fans. Why? well...the reason is obvious. Also, jazz fans tend to be Laker haters, which explains so much Kobe bashing. That being said, I do think Stockton and Malone were some of the greatest of all time in their positions. In fact, with regards to Malone, if there ever were an exception to be made, it would be with him at Power Forward. Even with no rings, that guy was an amazing machine of muscular awesomeness.

[Sizzle]

I agree with this for the most part, except for the glaring omission of Magic Johnson. Magic not only carried team, he basically won the championship for them. In his rookie season, he was an All-Star starter. Also, he was the NBA Finals MVP....the only person to ever be the Finals MVP as a rookie. Chew on that for a second. A ROOKIE is the Finals MVP. A Finals that featured Kareem and Dr J. The same rookie that averaged 18-7-7 in his first year. And by the way, Magic clinched that Finals victory in Game 6 (after Kareem was injured in Game 5 and DNP for Game 6) by playing center, guard, and forward. His stat line for that series clinching Game 6?.....42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals.

By no means did I mean Magic wasn't a huge factor in winning the ring. He was definitely the difference in the Finals series. My point is, would the Lakers without Kareem have made it to the Finals? They may have, but I have a hard time believing that considering how great of a player Kareem was.

This doesn't mean that I don't hold Magic in high regard, because I do. I have a world of respect for Magic and I would rank him as the 2nd greatest basketball player to play in the NBA behind only Jordan. Had he not had to retire early because of HIV, he might have closed the gap, as I don't know that MJ wins all three of the first three-peat if he has to face the Lakers and Magic again. I think LeBron has the type of talent to get into that discussion, and what he has done in his career so far has been amazing, given the enormous amount of hype to which he entered the league with. I just look at the teams that LBJ has played on, and honestly I can't say that there has been one player that he has played with that has any chance at getting into the Hall-Of-Fame, where Magic (Kareem & Worthy), Bird (McHale & Parrish), Jordan (Pippen) and Kobe (Shaq) all certainly did.

Just my two cents.

[TripletDaddy]

By no means did I mean Magic wasn't a huge factor in winning the ring. He was definitely the difference in the Finals series. My point is, would the Lakers without Kareem have made it to the Finals? They may have, but I have a hard time believing that considering how great of a player Kareem was.

This doesn't mean that I don't hold Magic in high regard, because I do. I have a world of respect for Magic and I would rank him as the 2nd greatest basketball player to play in the NBA behind only Jordan. Had he not had to retire early because of HIV, he might have closed the gap, as I don't know that MJ wins all three of the first three-peat if he has to face the Lakers and Magic again. I think LeBron has the type of talent to get into that discussion, and what he has done in his career so far has been amazing, given the enormous amount of hype to which he entered the league with. I just look at the teams that LBJ has played on, and honestly I can't say that there has been one player that he has played with that has any chance at getting into the Hall-Of-Fame, where Magic (Kareem & Worthy), Bird (McHale & Parrish), Jordan (Pippen) and Kobe (Shaq) all certainly did.

Just my two cents.

agreed. the interesting thing about this point your are making, or that all of us are making.....LBJ is aware of his legacy, his need to win rings, and the reality that the great dynasties were built on multiple all-star caliber rosters. It makes me wonder what he will really do come free agency. I am not sure the Knicks OR the Cavs are his best option, frankly.

[Sizzle]

In fact, with regards to Malone, if there ever were an exception to be made, it would be with him at Power Forward. Even with no rings, that guy was an amazing machine of muscular awesomeness.

I often wonder why Malone gets so much more respect than Stockton does nationally. Maybe it has to do more with the fact that Stock was white, 6'1" and looked like a guy you might square off against in a church ball game, where if a guy like Malone showed up to a church ball game in Utah, the opposing team would almost certainly think the game was over. Stock looked like "one of us" and so he is a bit more loved here in Utah than he was nationally. But looking at Stock's achievements, I think a lot of people don't realize how amazing his assist record is. Yes, he benefitted from playing with a great PF, but he played at a high level for so long, shot almost 52% from the field for his career (one of, if not the most underrated shooter in NBA history, IMO), and is more than 5,000 assists ahead of the next closest player (to put that in perspective, Jason Kidd would need to play 5 more years and play in all 82 games while averaging 12 assists per game... and would STILL be short of Stock's record). Yes, Stock benefitted from playing with Malone, but I think people underestimate how much Malone benefitted from playing with Stock.

[Sizzle]

agreed. the interesting thing about this point your are making, or that all of us are making.....LBJ is aware of his legacy, his need to win rings, and the reality that the great dynasties were built on multiple all-star caliber rosters. It makes me wonder what he will really do come free agency. I am not sure the Knicks OR the Cavs are his best option, frankly.

It does raise an interesting point. What would LBJ's legacy be if he is able to continue putting up numbers like he has but can't win a ring. There is probably not question that LBJ goes down as one of, if not the greatest player in history to never win a ring.

I have a hard time believing that he ends up retiring empty handed. He seems to be the type of athlete that has that innate ability to reach inside and take it to the next level and win, one way or another. It will be interesting to see what he does when Free Agency rolls around. I do think, however, that Mo Williams is at least the type of player LeBron will need if he wants to win a championship. Still another piece or two away, but definitely a step in the right direction.