"You Gotta Love It Baby" Official Jazz thread

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

The three was especially dumb but I'll take it as a sign that he is really trying to take that next step to become the go-to guy. Too bad his body just couldn't respond.

Corbin brought Hayward in earlier in the 3rd quarter, and I took that as a sign that he realized he needed Hayward to be on the court to finish the game, so he was going to get him a breather at some point in the 4th. Instead, it just meant Hayward stayed on the court forever and got wasted because he actually gives effort on both ends of the court.

[Blueintheface]

Corbin brought Hayward in earlier in the 3rd quarter, and I took that as a sign that he realized he needed Hayward to be on the court to finish the game, so he was going to get him a breather at some point in the 4th. Instead, it just meant Hayward stayed on the court forever and got wasted because he actually gives effort on both ends of the court.

Fans can't have it both ways though as until about 2 min to go he was the primary factor in the Jazz maintaining contact. I agree that a blow about the 6 min mark would have been nice but it is what it is and I'm glad he played as much as he did.

[MarkGrace]

So what? That doesn't make it right. The natural defensive rotation is to double the ball in the post, if the coach is choosing to double. Sloan rotated the wing with Boozer and Corbin's continued with Al. It's the wrong choice if the guy receiving the ball in the post is the primary scoring option. That's my argument. Do you disagree?

The so what is that he's not doing it for Al like you're claiming. Sloan did it with Boozer (and Memo), but he also did it with Malone (Stock was most often used as the double, but also Horny and other wings). It's the way the Jazz have done it for as long as I can remember. Whether the philosophy makes sense or not didn't seem to be your initial point.

And no, as a general idea I don't agree with your argument. Doubling with a big is an option, but there are others, including a guard/wing. Each option has its advantages and disadvantages. I think this provides a pretty good summary of those: http://www.fsps.muni.cz/ksh/dokument...jeni_posta.pdf

[Blueintheface]

The so what is that he's not doing it for Al like you're claiming. Sloan did it with Boozer (and Memo), but he also did it with Malone (Stock was most often used as the double, but also Horny and other wings). It's the way the Jazz have done it for as long as I can remember. Whether the philosophy makes sense or not didn't seem to be your initial point.

And no, as a general idea I don't agree with your argument. Doubling with a big is an option, but there are others, including a guard/wing. Each option has its advantages and disadvantages. I think this provides a pretty good summary of those: http://www.fsps.muni.cz/ksh/dokument...jeni_posta.pdf

Wait, what? He's not doing it for Al like I'm claiming? You then go on to say Sloan did it with Boozer and Memo and even Malone? I'm lost. You're right though, my initial argument made it sound like this was a new development and it is not and is clearly an ingrained philosophy on how to get beat from the 3-pt line.

That write-up was an interesting read though. That Milsap leads the team in steals and the 3-pt line is ignored doesn't help your argument though.

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

Fans can't have it both ways though as until about 2 min to go he was the primary factor in the Jazz maintaining contact. I agree that a blow about the 6 min mark would have been nice but it is what it is and I'm glad he played as much as he did.

Yep, that's why I didn't finish the post with a "Corbin is an idiot" line. But I will say that he is to blame for having his best player in an odd rotation situation. He can't use Hayward effectively in the starting lineup because of how he wants to feature Jefferson. So it means Hayward comes off the bench. But by doing that, it means your best player is going to miss a significant stretch in the 4th, he'll sit at the end of the game, or he'll be totally gassed then. If the team was better, it could withstand a 2-3 minute rest in the 4th for Gordon, but last night it wouldn't be rough to sit him at that point.

[MarkGrace]

Wait, what? He's not doing it for Al like I'm claiming? You then go on to say Sloan did it with Boozer and Memo and even Malone? I'm lost. You're right though, my initial argument made it sound like this was a new development and it is not and is clearly an ingrained philosophy on how to get beat from the 3-pt line.

I mean he's not doing it for Al to cover up his piss-poor defense just because it's Al. As in, he's not doing something different for everyone else, and just going out of his way to make an exception for Al. The Jazz would have made the same rotation whether it was Al, Sap, Derrick, Enes, Boozer, Memo, Malone, etc., etc. They've primarily been doubling that way for as long as I can remember.

That write-up was an interesting read though. That Milsap leads the team in steals and the 3-pt line is ignored doesn't help your argument though.

I'm sure a college coach is ignoring the 3pt line. Are you kidding? It's a bigger part of the college game than pro. It's not ignored, it's just a matter of emphasis. Whether you protect inside or outside. It's great that Sap leads the team in steals, but if you rotate big, you either (a) leave the lane wide open if no one rotates in time and both bigs are committed or (2) have a small on big mismatch right next to the hoop in just one rotation if the wing does make the rotation in time to cover the other guy.

It's just a give and take; there's no "right" way to do it. Plenty of teams make their double from the top, it's not like the Jazz are the only team doing it. Personally I want to do it however Thibodeau does! Actually, I'm sure he gives a variety of looks. Where the Jazz are rigid is that they seem committed to doing it the same way all the time no matter what. Sloan used to drive me nuts because he would always double the post. Always. It could be Dennis Rodman averaging 5 ppg a game on the year posted against Malone and Sloan was still sending a double. But this team has enough problems trying to pull off one rotation scenario -- they'd probably be a disaster if they had to learn more.

[Blueintheface]

Yep, that's why I didn't finish the post with a "Corbin is an idiot" line. But I will say that he is to blame for having his best player in an odd rotation situation. He can't use Hayward effectively in the starting lineup because of how he wants to feature Jefferson. So it means Hayward comes off the bench. But by doing that, it means your best player is going to miss a significant stretch in the 4th, he'll sit at the end of the game, or he'll be totally gassed then. If the team was better, it could withstand a 2-3 minute rest in the 4th for Gordon, but last night it wouldn't be rough to sit him at that point.

I agree, the overall team struggles have the trickle down affect of abusing your best players. If Foye had been contributing like he was in January it certainly would allow Corbin the flexibility to sit Gordon for a stretch in the 4th quarter but right now he's really struggling. Williams actually had a decent first half last night but was noticeably absent in the 2nd half. Predicting Corbin's line-ups at this point is anyone's guess which may be a good thing since the team is down right now.

[Blueintheface]

I mean he's not doing it for Al to cover up his piss-poor defense just because it's Al. As in, he's not doing something different for everyone else, and just going out of his way to make an exception for Al. The Jazz would have made the same rotation whether it was Al, Sap, Derrick, Enes, Boozer, Memo, Malone, etc., etc. They've primarily been doubling that way for as long as I can remember.



I'm sure a college coach is ignoring the 3pt line. Are you kidding? It's a bigger part of the college game than pro. It's not ignored, it's just a matter of emphasis. Whether you protect inside or outside. It's great that Sap leads the team in steals, but if you rotate big, you either (a) leave the lane wide open if no one rotates in time and both bigs are committed or (2) have a small on big mismatch right next to the hoop in just one rotation if the wing does make the rotation in time to cover the other guy.

It's just a give and take; there's no "right" way to do it. Plenty of teams make their double from the top, it's not like the Jazz are the only team doing it. Personally I want to do it however Thibodeau does! Actually, I'm sure he gives a variety of looks. Where the Jazz are rigid is that they seem committed to doing it the same way all the time no matter what. Sloan used to drive me nuts because he would always double the post. Always. It could be Dennis Rodman averaging 5 ppg a game on the year posted against Malone and Sloan was still sending a double. But this team has enough problems trying to pull off one rotation scenario -- they'd probably be a disaster if they had to learn more.

I'm confused by the bolded comment. Are you suggesting I'm criticizing the writer (coach)? I'm criticizing the Jazz coaching philosophy and IGNORE is the best description for the Sloan philosophy of 3-pt defense. Yes it's a give and take but what part of this year's defensive statistics tells you they are making any decision correctly? Teams can score at will on this team both inside and outside and while I realize that doesn't fall entirely upon Al's lap he is a glaring problem in playing ANY defense, even the guy to which he is assigned and never leaves. Teams SnR this team to death and Al does nothing more than hinder his own help-defender from staying with the ball handler. That Earl, Jamal, and Foye are the other defender doesn't help but he is simply of less value to the team than his offensive production would seem to indicate. 19 shots to get 19 points while giving up 25-30? The guy is just bad in any team defense scenario and yes that affects the 3-pt shot as well as interior defense.

[MarkGrace]

I'm confused by the bolded comment. Are you suggesting I'm criticizing the writer (coach)? I'm criticizing the Jazz coaching philosophy and IGNORE is the best description for the Sloan philosophy of 3-pt defense. Yes it's a give and take but what part of this year's defensive statistics tells you they are making any decision correctly?

Defensive statistics are a composite thing. Jazz rank around 20th in defensive efficiency, but is that entirely attributable to the fact that they double with guards/wings instead of bigs? Of course not. I'm sure you can grab several teams from near the top of the defensive efficiency rankings and find some who mostly double team the post that way as well. In terms of opponent field goal percent, they rank as poorly on the floor as they do from 3. The just struggle guarding everywhere, and that's before even getting to the fact that their biggest problem defensively has never been the 3pt line (though that's probably #2), it's the amount they foul. And of course personnel is a factor. The 2nd unit defends leagues better than the first and they're doing all the same stuff.

I'm not arguing their approach is right in everything they do defensively. I'm just saying that there's no necessarily "right" way to double team the post -- there are a variety of options each yielding positives and negatives. I'm sure there are just as many teams that do it the way the Jazz do as those who use another big. If, for example, the Jazz started doubling the post with a big instead of wing, how different do you think the results would be? My bet is not any different. They're just a shitty defensive group with a lot of problems.

Teams can score at will on this team both inside and outside and while I realize that doesn't fall entirely upon Al's lap he is a glaring problem in playing ANY defense, even the guy to which he is assigned and never leaves. Teams SnR this team to death and Al does nothing more than hinder his own help-defender from staying with the ball handler. That Earl, Jamal, and Foye are the other defender doesn't help but he is simply of less value to the team than his offensive production would seem to indicate. 19 shots to get 19 points while giving up 25-30? The guy is just bad in any team defense scenario and yes that affects the 3-pt shot as well as interior defense.

If you think I'm making the argument that Al is anything other than a poor defender, you are mistaken. Circling back to where we started, my point was that I don't think Corbin is making any type of exception to cover for Al.

[The_Douger]

Well, that's why Ty Corbin is an idiot. What would be best for the team is to have Favors start and then use Kanter and Millsap together on the second unit. I don't care how much Paul freaking Millsap thinks he is a starter. He would be much better suited to play on the second unit with Kanter.

[Jacob]

Hacking the Grantland article, I see.

I think he was hacking me from a year ago.

[MarkGrace]

Well, that's why Ty Corbin is an idiot. What would be best for the team is to have Favors start and then use Kanter and Millsap together on the second unit. I don't care how much Paul freaking Millsap thinks he is a starter. He would be much better suited to play on the second unit with Kanter.

I think they could get better results by mixing it up. Al sucks defensively, no doubt, but Al + Sap is an even bigger problem. It was the same thing with Boozer. Yeah, he sucked, but it was made worse by Booz + Memo. Short of Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, the number of bigs who are going to give you plus offense and plus defense is basically non-existent. 99% of the time it's about combinations and other factors. Booz was a dreadful defender in Utah -- two years later he's the starting PF on the best defensive unit in the league. But they always had him next to a great defender (Joakim or Taj), they had better personnel all around, and they had a better approach.

That said, I'm kind of liking seeing that whole second group play together. A part of me hopes it's helping them build chemistry for when they do get to start playing more. I just wish they got more minutes together right now!

[The_Douger]

I agree. It just bugs me that we have this sluggish, ogre like unit to start the game, and then the exciting second unit comes in and gets a lead or cuts the lead to nothing, and then we go back to the first unit which falls apart like we saw in the third quarter last night.

[MarkGrace]

Does this surprise anyone else?

George scoring rate - 18.7
G-Time scoring rate - 20.9

George PER - 17.34
G-Time PER - 17.20

George seems to be putting up huge all-around numbers every night, so I was surprised to see them so close in overall production (and G-Time with a clear lead in scoring rate).

[MarkGrace]

Rivers referenced the back-to-back blocked dunks Hayward recorded in a game against the Celtics last year, calling the sequence the “play of the year.’’

“He’s just getting better and better,’’ Rivers said. “He’s got to stay healthy obviously, but he’s a terrific player.’’

After Hayward scored 26 points to lead the Jazz, Rivers was just as effusive.

“That kid is unbelievable," Rivers said. "I don’t think he realizes how good he is.’’

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...to-Boston.html

David Locke @Lockedonsports
Gordon Hayward uses 14% of his possession to go the line #3 of all wings in NBA behind Harden (17.1%) and Durant (16.0%)