Back to School Night

[wuapinmon]

Thanks, wuap. I'm no curriculum expert, I just know what literature made a mark on me. You make an interesting point about Shakespeare. Keep in mind, my big Shakespeare experience was in an AP class, which is supposed to be college-level. (I'd add Julius Caesar to your list, BTW.) I do think they should read the great books in high school - many of them are very accessible, and I think we should be very careful about "dumbing down" the curriculum. In my two sons' cases, their teachers were very young recent Berkeley grads who disdained the great books. So we got Fight Club and Vonnegut instead.

There's lots of room for the newer stuff - in that same high school class where I got Shakespeare and Plato, I also got Richard Brautigan (Trout Fishing in America, which was not about catching fish), Paul Zindel (My Darling, My Hamburger; I Never Loved Your Mind), and other more avant-garde authors.-

The nation will survive. I'm mainly harrumphing.

What I think we should consider is that the concept of canon and the list of great books changes (dare I say, "evolves?") over time. There are so many amazing books that it's impossible to read them all. While we certainly need a core few to experience, the whole of human experience cannot be circumscribed into one great whole. So, we read things like Fight Club and Vonnegut ("Harrison Bergeron" is <redacted>- near prophetic) in an attempt to engage our pupils on themes that address a portion of the human condition.

[LA Ute]

This is sad commentary coming from a college professor.

I'm always amazed by the degree to which adults discount the emotional and metaphysical lives of preteens and teens. Reading biographies of great men and women: you realize they all read engaging and mature books when they were young.

Will teenagers get all of the human understanding in Hamlet? Do you? They will get some; and those pieces will be invaluable in forming and creating a self-examined life, of seeing some things as they really are; of thinking about the challenges, perplexities, and joys of being human.

Final note: how do we expect our young to develop these sensitivities but to trust them with the tools to do so -- art, literature, music? They'll recognize their own experiences, feelings, thoughts articulated in these works of art, and they'll understand their life much better; and have a greater ability to process what they are feeling and going through in the future. And they'll marvel how someone could express what they feel and think in similar situations. They'll feel connected to the generations past, and to themselves.

Everyone should read Lear at age 18 and again at age 50. It'll be like reading two different plays, and valuable each time.

[LA Ute]

What I think we should consider is that the concept of canon and the list of great books changes (dare I say, "evolves?") over time. There are so many amazing books that it's impossible to read them all. While we certainly need a core few to experience, the whole of human experience cannot be circumscribed into one great whole. So, we read things like Fight Club and Vonnegut ("Harrison Bergeron" is <redacted>- near prophetic) in an attempt to engage our pupils on themes that address a portion of the human condition.

I generally agree. It's finding the right mix that I fear we are getting wrong more often than not these days.

[wuapinmon]

I generally agree. It's finding the right mix that I fear we are getting wrong more often than not these days.

Can you see how your demographics might color your opinion about this (just as mine do mine)? The mix too is ever-evolving. Don't get me wrong, I think people need to read the classics, especially the Classics. I don't think 11th graders need A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man foisted on them along with Silas Marner, but I do think that there are a few books that should be read by all:

The Odyssey
Plato's The Republic
New Testament Parables
Lord of the Flies
A Prayer for Owen Meany

[Pheidippides]

Major shocker coming:

I have never read Hamlet.

Background:

The greatest teacher I have ever had was my Junior Honors/Senior AP English teacher. She was a whisky-swilling, gun-toting, non-mormon, East Coast-raised, UConn grad genius (some of that was reputed and not actually likely to be true). Stood out like a sore thumb in Heber, although the longer I live outside of Utah the more I realize that we were the weird ones and she was perfectly normal.

She also taugh English like nobody I have ever seen. My college classes at the Y (save your jokes!) were not as good, both from a literature perspetive and a writing perspective.

She was known for being mean and scary, but really she was just demanding - it was hard to fake it through her class (although I did on a couple of books). And she picked literature that was different because she expected more. Everybody is reading Hamlet? Screw that - we're reading King Lear and Othello. You guys are white farm hicks with no exposure to other cultures? Let's read Native Son. And so on.

Certainly we read a lot of stuff other people were reading as well, and much of it was advanced beyond our feeble intellects (The Sound and the Fury jumps to mind). But she instilled a love of literature - and a fledgling ability to understand it - in me that I have retained for years. Also, she kissed me once, although it wasn't as bad as that makes it sound.

She was also very exacting (and always correct) on grammar and punctuation, and it is largely thanks to her that I know how to use homonyms and apostrophes correctly.

So, if you're out there Mrs. S, thank you.

Note: Livecoug may hate her guts for all I know. But I know I'm not the only WHS alum who thinks she was awesome, at least in retrospect.

[wuapinmon]

Certainly we read a lot of stuff other people were reading as well, and much of it was advanced beyond our feeble intellects (The Sound and the Fury jumps to mind). But she instilled a love of literature - and a fledgling ability to understand it - in me that I have retained for years. Also, she kissed me once, although it wasn't as bad as that makes it sound.

You damned thread-jacker! Let the questions commence!

[creekster]

Can you see how your demographics might color your opinion about this (just as mine do mine)? The mix too is ever-evolving. Don't get me wrong, I think people need to read the classics, especially the Classics. I don't think 11th graders need A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man foisted on them along with Silas Marner, but I do think that there are a few books that should be read by all:

The Odyssey
Plato's The Republic
New Testament Parables
Lord of the Flies
A Prayer for Owen Meany

A Prayer for Owen Meany? One of my all time favorite books. I may now need to conisder taking back all those rotten things I have said about you.

[wuapinmon]

A Prayer for Owen Meany? One of my all time favorite books. I may now need to conisder taking back all those rotten things I have said about you.

It's about <redacted> time! That book changed my life (one of many that have done so), but I think it hits upon the universal struggle between faith and knowledge and taking and accepting the life that you're given. A perfect book from a brilliant author.

[JohnnyLingo]

Can you see how your demographics might color your opinion about this (just as mine do mine)? The mix too is ever-evolving. Don't get me wrong, I think people need to read the classics, especially the Classics. I don't think 11th graders need A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man foisted on them along with Silas Marner, but I do think that there are a few books that should be read by all:

The Odyssey
Plato's The Republic
New Testament Parables
Lord of the Flies
A Prayer for Owen Meany

The Odyssey is okay, but not a must-read, in my opinion. I agree that Republic should be on there.

[creekster]

The Odyssey is okay, but not a must-read, in my opinion. I agree that Republic should be on there.

Are you trolling?

[JohnnyLingo]

Are you trolling?

No sir.

[creekster]

No sir.

I disagree (about the book, not baout if you are trolling). Reading that book is absolutely necessary, IMO, for anyone that wants to have even a rudimentary understanding of western thought and culture. It isnt on all the lists becasue it is a fun read (although I liked it) but becasue it is a necessary read.

[JohnnyLingo]

I disagree (about the book, not baout if you are trolling). Reading that book is absolutely necessary, IMO, for anyone that wants to have even a rudimentary understanding of western thought and culture. It isnt on all the lists becasue it is a fun read (although I liked it) but becasue it is a necessary read.

I studied it extensively in a Greek and Roman culture class I took at BYU-I, but the professor was pretty bad and I don't remember getting a lot out of the epic poem besides details about the story.

Without trying to sound sarcastic, help me out here, creek. You obviously got a ton from Homer, so share some of it with me if you would.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Can you see how your demographics might color your opinion about this (just as mine do mine)? The mix too is ever-evolving. Don't get me wrong, I think people need to read the classics, especially the Classics. I don't think 11th graders need A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man foisted on them along with Silas Marner, but I do think that there are a few books that should be read by all:

The Odyssey
Plato's The Republic
New Testament Parables
Lord of the Flies
A Prayer for Owen Meany

When I was in graduate school I took several courses in Japanese just for fun. These were graduate-level courses and all of the other students were working on Ph.D.'s in literature/language/etc. We were reading classics in Japanese literature in one of the courses and occasionally we would come upon some kind of biblical reference and inevitably, none of them would make the connection (including the instructor in most cases). In discussing the references, I was stunned to learn that only one of the other students had ever read the bible. That still blows my mind.

[Pheidippides]

When I was in graduate school I took several courses in Japanese just for fun. These were graduate-level courses and all of the other students were working on Ph.D.'s in literature/language/etc. We were reading classics in Japanese literature in one of the courses and occasionally we would come upon some kind of biblical reference and inevitably, none of them would make the connection (including the instructor in most cases). In discussing the references, I was stunned to learn that only one of the other students had ever read the bible. That still blows my mind.

Doubly shocking if any of the literature choices involved Endo Shusaku at all. The Bible is practically a prerequisite.