Back to School Night

[LA Ute]

When I was in graduate school I took several courses in Japanese just for fun. These were graduate-level courses and all of the other students were working on Ph.D.'s in literature/language/etc. We were reading classics in Japanese literature in one of the courses and occasionally we would come upon some kind of biblical reference and inevitably, none of them would make the connection (including the instructor in most cases). In discussing the references, I was stunned to learn that only one of the other students had ever read the bible. That still blows my mind.

During my sojourn at BYU I took a course called "The Bible As Literature." (Do they still teach that one there?) The prof was far from a mullah (I think he was even a Democrat!) and it was a great ride. I do think the culture is changing, which is too bad. To someone who reads Moby Dick and has never read the Bible, Captain Ahab simply has a strange name.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Doubly shocking if any of the literature choices involved Endo Shusaku at all. The Bible is practically a prerequisite.

Natsume Soseki
Akutagawa Ryunosuke
Yasunari Kawabata
...

[LA Ute]

Can you see how your demographics might color your opinion about this (just as mine do mine)? The mix too is ever-evolving. Don't get me wrong, I think people need to read the classics, especially the Classics. I don't think 11th graders need A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man foisted on them along with Silas Marner, but I do think that there are a few books that should be read by all:

The Odyssey
Plato's The Republic
New Testament Parables
Lord of the Flies
A Prayer for Owen Meany

I like your list, but would add some stuff from the Victorian era (Dickens, probably). And maybe Spider-Man No. 1.

[Pheidippides]

Natsume Soseki
Akutagawa Ryunosuke
Yasunari Kawabata
...

Three classical authors if if I've ever seen them. We read a lot of their stuff in Japanese 441 (in the original) and a lot of the rest of it was on the reading list for the major (in translation).

Sadly, I've forgotten much of what I read, and should go digging around in my attic for what we read.

One of my great regrets, btw, is that I didn't take more upper-level Japanese courses when I was in law school. Donald Keene was still teaching then, and I did go to several of his lectures.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Three classical authors if if I've ever seen them. We read a lot of their stuff in Japanese 441 (in the original) and a lot of the rest of it was on the reading list for the major (in translation).

Sadly, I've forgotten much of what I read, and should go digging around in my attic for what we read.

One of my great regrets, btw, is that I didn't take more upper-level Japanese courses when I was in law school. Donald Keene was still teaching then, and I did go to several of his lectures.

I loved it. While I was in grad school there was an NSF program providing grant money for Ph.D. candidates in science and engineering for taking Japanese courses (back when Japan was considered our main technical rival). I applied and won the award. Paid tuition for all the courses I wanted to take plus $800 in cash to buy textbooks. It was great.

I have a killer library of Japanese textbooks/dictionaries.

[Solon]

In response to many posts in this thread, I'll ask, many of the great books of our time are about social injustice

Don't forget Steinbeck. My all-time favorite American writer (next to TMQ).

[Pheidippides]

I loved it. While I was in grad school there was an NSF program providing grant money for Ph.D. candidates in science and engineering for taking Japanese courses (back when Japan was considered our main technical rival). I applied and won the award. Paid tuition for all the courses I wanted to take plus $800 in cash to buy textbooks. It was great.

I have a killer library of Japanese textbooks/dictionaries.

I have some great dictionaries (including a Koujien I won in a speech contest and that I've used quite a bit) but my textbook supply is unfortunately low. I really should have stocked up when I lived in NYC (there is a Kinokuniya right next to 30 Rock).

[Solon]

I studied it extensively in a Greek and Roman culture class I took at BYU-I, but the professor was pretty bad and I don't remember getting a lot out of the epic poem besides details about the story.

Without trying to sound sarcastic, help me out here, creek. You obviously got a ton from Homer, so share some of it with me if you would.

The Iliad is better, I think, but not for high school audiences.

The books are important for what they are and the ideals they inspired as much as for their mighty intrinsic worth. Understanding the heroic code helps us understand the ideals of the ancient Greeks and - by extension - Romans who set up much of what has come to be known (albeit in a transformed state) as western culture.

They deal with all sorts of themes - the quest for glory, redemption, loyalty, revenge, mortality/immortality, good vs. evil, the role of the gods & fate that have become standard fare for western sensibilities.

[JohnnyLingo]

The Iliad is better, I think, but not for high school audiences.

The books are important for what they are and the ideals they inspired as much as for their mighty intrinsic worth. Understanding the heroic code helps us understand the ideals of the ancient Greeks and - by extension - Romans who set up much of what has come to be known (albeit in a transformed state) as western culture.

They deal with all sorts of themes - the quest for glory, redemption, loyalty, revenge, mortality/immortality, good vs. evil, the role of the gods & fate that have become standard fare for western sensibilities.

Is this all in the sense of just knowing where the themes came from? Because someone who's well-read already won't really get anything new out of Homer. Would it be just as beneficial to say "Here is where the themes of good vs. evil, redemption, loyalty, etc. came from and here's the basic idea of the story. You've seem all of this before in books and movies."

[Clark Addison]

I just read this thread for the first time, so I'm going to speak to the original point rather than where it has wandered off to.

In some areas I am on the liberal side of CUF. I was also an English major, for whatever that is worth. My reaction, depending on the attitude of the teacher, would have been more along the WTF(etch) side of the spectrum.

Responding somewhat to waup's early points, I have no problem at all with a teacher using literature to bring up issues such as social justice, but I do not like it when that seems to be the main purpose of the class, for a couple of reasons. First, I think this approach tends to give short shrift to the literature part of the literature class. If this is done in a class for college upperclassmen, OK, they can probably handle it, but I want my high-schoolers to be grounded in literature. Second, I think we all know of people in the Water Cooler or other political forums who cherry pick stories, quotes, etc. that support their view, and have no interest in real discussion. If a literature class is organized with the main purpose of promoting "social justice", I just don't expect it to be a class with substantive discussion, but instead with dogma and groupthink. I'm sure it sometimes elevates above this, but I've seen the opposite many times.

Lastly, If you divide subjects into things that I want to teach my kids, versus things I want them taught in school, literary analysis falls more into the latter category, whereas social justice is more the former.

P.S. I went through an honors program in one of the top high schools in the country. I graduated with a B.A. in English. I have never read Lord of the Flies. Maybe I will pick it up.

[creekster]

Is this all in the sense of just knowing where the themes came from? Because someone who's well-read already won't really get anything new out of Homer. Would it be just as beneficial to say "Here is where the themes of good vs. evil, redemption, loyalty, etc. came from and here's the basic idea of the story. You've seem all of this before in books and movies."

in addition to what Solon said (which I think you glossed over in your response), The Odyssey and Iliad (and I think of them as one, really) are foundational to our culture. They are the source of allusions, of insightful references, a common ground upon which we can discuss ideas and relate to each other. If you have not read these, you have a hole in your education.

[JohnnyLingo]

in addition to what Solon said (which I think you glossed over in your response), The Odyssey and Iliad (and I think of them as one, really) are foundational to our culture. They are the source of allusions, of insightful references, a common ground upon which we can discuss ideas and relate to each other. If you have not read these, you have a hole in your education.

Good answer. I like it.

[RobinFinderson]

Don't forget Steinbeck. My all-time favorite American writer (next to TMQ).

EEeeeew! My all-time least favorite noteworthy American writer. I loved Tortilla Flats though...

[JohnnyLingo]

EEeeeew! My all-time least favorite noteworthy American writer. I loved Tortilla Flats though...

Hey! Respect the grapes!

Okay for real I don't like him much, either.

[RobinFinderson]

As it turns out, I would think that taking a class in social justice as a high school student would be beneficial on an application to most universities and colleges.