Impeaching Trump: Make America Sane Again

[All-American]

I'm fully convinced that this played out exactly as Democrats wanted. They never wanted Trump convicted. They wanted Republicans to acquit him so they can hang that around their heads in future elections. They could have made this much more bipartisan if they wanted to by involving Republicans that supported impeachment in the drafting of the articles and appointing at least one of them as a house manager. They also could have avoided overcharging in the articles themselves. At the end of the day, "incitement" in the impeachment context is whatever Congress decides it is, but given that it also has a specific meaning in the criminal law, which the Democrats had to know they couldn't actually prove, it seems clear to me that this was set up to fail from the outset.

It's probably true that most of the Senate Republicans would not vote to convict under any circumstances, but the Democrats made it easier for them to say no when they didn't have to. And saying no is exactly what the Democrats wanted Senate Republicans to do. If they had drafted articles that were harder for Republicans to rebut (which would have been easy to do), or engaged in a more bipartisan process, they risked Trump actually being convicted and disqualified from future office. That was not in their best political interest though. They will now raise a ton of money off of the threat of Trump running again in 2024 and beyond.

I also think this explains why Democrats slow walked the process in the House a little bit. The bipartisan outrage over Trump's actions were at their peak on January 6th. Democrats could have easily voted on articles of impeachment on January 7th and sent them to the Senate that same day. But they waited until January 11th, using the stupid 25th amendment crap as their excuse for the delay, and didn't even deliver the articles to the Senate until January 25th, after Trump was already out of office. If they had acted immediately, I think the pressure on McConnell would have been very high to reconvene and hold a trial before the inauguration. McConnell was reportedly favoring impeachment at that point anyways. And it wasn't until January 13th, a week before the inauguration, that he publicly stated he wouldn't call Senators back for impeachment. I think a quick impeachment and trial would have had a better chance of resulting in conviction than what occurred. It would have also taken away the stupid argument that the post-inauguration trial was unconstitutional, which is what most Republicans relied on (not the lack of evidence to support the charges) in "justifying" their vote to acquit.

This is basically where I am. The fact that the articles of impeachment ignored any activity after the breach of the perimeter, which is by far the most offensive action/inaction of all, is so glaring that it is hard to imagine it was not a deliberate decision. The nail in the coffin for me is the fact that the majority of the senate voted to allow witnesses, and then the house managers elected not to call any.

Democrats wanted to levy the most charged accusations possible so they can argue that Trump and his supporters were insurrectionists, but they also wanted to keep as many Republicans as possible in the camp of the accused insurrectionists.

This was not about creating a record for posterity. It was not about investigating what led to this shameful event or holding wrongdoers accountable. It's about the next election, pure and simple.

[beefytee]

Interesting bill being debated in the Utah Legislature:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50106715...ugh-utah-house

https://le.utah.gov/~2021/bills/static/HB0197.html

I don't like open primaries (otherwise what is the point of having political parties at all?) and the fact that the bill contains exceptions for:

Unaffiliated voters
Newly registered voters
Those switching to unaffiliated

means I would probably vote for it.

I don't know why the government is involved with political parties at all. Let the parties manage themselves. While I generally like the US system of government, political parties are messed up here.

Let people join as many parties as they want and allow parties to charge fees for membership. Let them do primaries and caucuses whenever they want and don't give them any government money, and certainly don't give Republicans and Democrats preferential treatment like automatically getting their nominee on the ballot.

[fusnik]

This is basically where I am. The fact that the articles of impeachment ignored any activity after the breach of the perimeter, which is by far the most offensive action/inaction of all, is so glaring that it is hard to imagine it was not a deliberate decision. The nail in the coffin for me is the fact that the majority of the senate voted to allow witnesses, and then the house managers elected not to call any.

Democrats wanted to levy the most charged accusations possible so they can argue that Trump and his supporters were insurrectionists, but they also wanted to keep as many Republicans as possible in the camp of the accused insurrectionists.

This was not about creating a record for posterity. It was not about investigating what led to this shameful event or holding wrongdoers accountable. It's about the next election, pure and simple.

It didn’t matter what it was the GOP was going to acquit him. They globbed on to some legal opinion of Johnathan Turley and weren’t going to deviate.

Did you not watch McConnells speech?

The GOP couldn’t convict him because if they did they would have to do something about Hawley, Cruz, Paul, Brooks, LB, MTG, Graham, Brooks, Tubberville, Nunes, Rubio, Scott, and all the other elected officials that were complicit in pushing and supporting the events that led to the insurrection.

[All-American]

It didn’t matter what it was the GOP was going to acquit him. They globbed on to some legal opinion of Johnathan Turley and weren’t going to deviate.

Did you not watch McConnells speech?

The GOP couldn’t convict him because if they did they would have to do something about Hawley, Cruz, Paul, Brooks, LB, MTG, Graham, Brooks, Tubberville, Nunes, Rubio, Scott, and all the other elected officials that were complicit in pushing and supporting the events that led to the insurrection.

Oh, no question, the GOP is being as nakedly opportunistic as the Dems are. That's why they latched onto the no-jurisdiction theory, in spite of its weaknesses in theoretical support. It's the one that lets them say, with the straightest possible face, that Trump's conduct was reprehensible and that their vote should in no way be seen as approving or somehow excusing it. Then they can argue that they shouldn't be saddled with Trump's baggage if that's a turnoff to their voters.

Everyone, except maybe Mitt Romney, is simply looking at the next election. The real wonder is why anyone would ever think otherwise.

[BlueK]

This is basically where I am. The fact that the articles of impeachment ignored any activity after the breach of the perimeter, which is by far the most offensive action/inaction of all, is so glaring that it is hard to imagine it was not a deliberate decision. The nail in the coffin for me is the fact that the majority of the senate voted to allow witnesses, and then the house managers elected not to call any.

Democrats wanted to levy the most charged accusations possible so they can argue that Trump and his supporters were insurrectionists, but they also wanted to keep as many Republicans as possible in the camp of the accused insurrectionists.

This was not about creating a record for posterity. It was not about investigating what led to this shameful event or holding wrongdoers accountable. It's about the next election, pure and simple.

I think you two are being too conspiratorial on this. You can be critical of their strategy but not wanting a conviction? Uh no, I don’t buy that. As far as having a Republican impeachment manager goes there wasn't much there to choose from and it would be asking that person to sacrifice their career for it. Keep that in mind.

[USUC]

Do we have a "future of the Republican Party" thread here? It's going to be fascinating to watch this play out. Right now the GOP base is batshit crazy. Most GOP Senators, and a good portion of House Republicans think Trump is harmful and don't believe the nonsense he spouts. But they are afraid of the base that now believes it. It's their own fault for not standing up to Trump of course.

The number one priority of politicians is to be re-elected. That's why so many of these idiots who didn't believe Trump went along with it. I'm sure they thought that once Trump was gone, all would go back to normal. But now they have a base that demands Trump loyalty and can boot them out if they don't toe the Trump line.

So what's the strategy moving forward for the GOP? The House is full of Trump loyal idiots. We know what they will do. But if you are a politician that wants to move past Trump, but have a voting base that is Trumpy, what's the move? Is the base less Trumpy than they assume? Will they be able to change the narrative by focusing on just being the opposition to the Dems, instead of talking constantly about Trump? The next 3 years will be interesting.

[All-American]

I think you two are being too conspiratorial on this. You can be critical of their strategy but not wanting a conviction? Uh no, I don’t buy that. As far as having a Republican impeachment manager goes there wasn't much there to choose from and it would be asking that person to sacrifice their career for it. Keep that in mind.

You're probably right. I'm sure it was not the prospect of the next election, but rather the goodness of their hearts and the love of their country, that motivated them.

[fusnik]

I think you two are being too conspiratorial on this. You can be critical of their strategy but not wanting a conviction? Uh no, I don’t buy that. As far as having a Republican impeachment manager goes there wasn't much there to choose from and it would be asking that person to sacrifice their career for it. Keep that in mind.

They are just starting to parrot what conservative intelligentsia will start hammering over the next couple of years - we wanted to convict look at MMcC’s comments but dem incompetence didn’t allow us to pull the trigger.

[BlueK]

You're probably right. I'm sure it was not the prospect of the next election, but rather the goodness of their hearts and the love of their country, that motivated them.

Well, there is also absolutely nothing wrong with pinning this on the GOP in the next election.

[All-American]

They are just starting to parrot what conservative intelligentsia will start hammering over the next couple of years - we wanted to convict look at MMcC’s comments but dem incompetence didn’t allow us to pull the trigger.

First of all, conservative intelligentsia will be parroting US-- not the other way around.

Second, if Republicans wanted to convict they would have convicted. They didn't convict because they didn't want to convict.

Third, I never suggested Dems are being incompetent in how they handled the impeachment. Just the opposite: I think they knew exactly what they were doing and got exactly what they wanted.

[BlueK]

First of all, conservative intelligentsia will be parroting US-- not the other way around.

Second, if Republicans wanted to convict they would have convicted. They didn't convict because they didn't want to convict.

Third, I never suggested Dems are being incompetent in how they handled the impeachment. Just the opposite: I think they knew exactly what they were doing and got exactly what they wanted.

You're saying they successfully tricked the Republicans into not convicting. That's just too many conspiracy loops for me. Electorally the GOP was going to be in trouble either way anyway.

[fusnik]

First of all, conservative intelligentsia will be parroting US-- not the other way around.

Second, if Republicans wanted to convict they would have convicted. They didn't convict because they didn't want to convict.

Third, I never suggested Dems are being incompetent in how they handled the impeachment. Just the opposite: I think they knew exactly what they were doing and got exactly what they wanted.

Cynical much?

I know it’s been hard shoveling the tons of shit down your gullet that folks that think like you have been doing the last 5 years but that doesn’t mean everyone’s actions are some manifestation of moral rot.

The Dems took political risk by even attempting to impeach him, it looks like it was the right risk to take. I think the GOP will be forced to go along with a 9/11 style commission which almost assuredly will be political death to some major players in the GOP.

This is a good thing for everyone.

[Eddie]

You're saying they successfully tricked the Republicans into not convicting. That's just too many conspiracy loops for me. Electorally the GOP was going to be in trouble either way anyway.

I wouldn't say that the Dems tricked the GOP into not convicting. I would say that the Dems knew there was no way in hell the GOP would convict based on the number of GOP senators up Trump's backside, so they pushed for the impeachment knowing he would not be convicted, but knowing they could use it against the GOP in the next election cycle.

Honestly - it's win/win for the Dems. If they impeach and are successful at having Trump convicted and removed, they get to point to everyone who supported an impeached president and point to the Trump being so bad that even the GOP agreed with them - while also fracturing the GOP. If the GOP puts up a candidate in 2024 who supported Trump, they get to use that against him/her with non-antisocial voters. And if they pick someone who didn't support Trump, it costs them Trump's most ardent fan boys/girls and limits the voters that candidate will gain, making winning more difficult than it already is.

Meanwhile - during the mid-term in 2022 they have the same thing going for them. The can campaign against a number of incumbents based on their support of Trump, and fracture the voters/support of never-Trumpers as well.

The GOP was screwed the moment they decided to put up with Trump's nonsense for the last 4 years.

[fusnik]

You're saying they successfully tricked the Republicans into not convicting. That's just too many conspiracy loops for me. Electorally the GOP was going to be in trouble either way anyway.

It’s broken brain thinking that has infected millions of people.

There is a genuine belief among the GOP that if you capitulate on Trump that you are capitulating on America. Thus for the past 5 years facts, evidence doesn’t matter anymore.

[BlueK]

I wouldn't say that the Dems tricked the GOP into not convicting. I would say that the Dems knew there was no way in hell the GOP would convict based on the number of GOP senators up Trump's backside, so they pushed for the impeachment knowing he would not be convicted, but knowing they could use it against the GOP in the next election cycle.

Honestly - it's win/win for the Dems. If they impeach and are successful at having Trump convicted and removed, they get to point to everyone who supported an impeached president and point to the Trump being so bad that even the GOP agreed with them - while also fracturing the GOP. If the GOP puts up a candidate in 2024 who supported Trump, they get to use that against him/her with non-antisocial voters. And if they pick someone who didn't support Trump, it costs them Trump's most ardent fan boys/girls and limits the voters that candidate will gain, making winning more difficult than it already is.

Meanwhile - during the mid-term in 2022 they have the same thing going for them. The can campaign against a number of incumbents based on their support of Trump, and fracture the voters/support of never-Trumpers as well.

The GOP was screwed the moment they decided to put up with Trump's nonsense for the last 4 years.

Agreed. And over the next couple of years more facts will come out about the Capitol attack, none of which will make many Republicans look very good.