Impeaching Trump: Make America Sane Again

[Jeff Lebowski]

Okay, for the sake of argument, lets assume you are correct....you probably would want to call out the fact that they are a satirical publication and then work from there, rather than treat it as you would any other credible attempt at journalism. It looks foolish on you later when people mock you and then you claim that you were only doing this for those who could not clearly discern the truth.

Seems odd to make such a big deal of that angle. So much fake news out there, satire and otherwise. I can't imagine trying to keep up with it all.

[imanihonjin]

Seems odd to make such a big deal of that angle. So much fake news out there, satire and otherwise. I can't imagine trying to keep up with it all.

Okay, cool. It was just one example of why relying on snopes to help you weed through all the fake news, isn't really all that helpful. Feel free to continue to use them! Creekster offered a reasonable analysis why the snopes article linked previously was a joke.

[BlueK]

"In the days following the phone call, I learned from multiple US officials that senior White House officials had intervened to 'lock down' all records of the phone call, especially the official word-for-word transcript of the call that was produced -- as is customary -- by the White House Situation Room. This set of actions underscored to me that White House officials understood the gravity of what had transpired in the call.

"White House officials told me that they were 'directed' by White House lawyers to remove the electronic transcript from the computer system in which such transcripts are typically stored for coordination, finalization, and distribution to Cabinet-level officials.

"Instead, the transcript was loaded into a separate electronic system that is otherwise used to store and handle classified information of an especially sensitive nature. One White House official described this act as an abuse of this electronic system because the call did not contain anything remotely sensitive from a national security perspective."

Here's why that allegation from the whistleblower matters SO much and has the potential to directly threaten Trump's presidency:
1) If true, it makes clear that there was a concerted effort by the Trump White House to cover up the conversation because they knew that what Trump had said and done was so problematic. That's a far cry from Trump's description of the call as "perfect" and totally normal.

2) Either the transcript of the call is in the "computer system where such transcripts are typically stored" or it isn't. Ditto the allegation that the transcript was put into a separate electronic system reserved for classified information. Where the transcript was placed is not a subjective judgment. And it is something that should be find-out-able.

In short: The allegation in the whistleblower report of a coverup over the July 25 call between Trump and Zelensky matters so incredibly much not only because it alleges that forces within the White House knew how bad it was and acted to try to keep it from getting out. But also -- and this is the truly important part -- that there seems a high likelihood that there is an electronic paper trail that can either confirm (or not) the whistleblower's claim.

If it is proven that the transcript of the call was purposely siloed -- and the classified categorization was misused to keep the conversation from ever reaching the public -- the Trump presidency could be genuinely imperiled."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/26/polit...ump/index.html

[wapiti]

I read in a Drudge linked article that the timeline for impeachment is the end of the year and that is considered "striking while the iron is hot." Then it would probably take the Senate several months to convict or acquit. It may be in the dems best interest to drag this out as long possible so that republicans don't have time to get a new candidate.

[The_Tick]

Waded into this thread. Yikes. Wrong turn.

But this is a good example of how we have lost the ability to have a discussion, in society, without making things extremely personal.

I do find it interesting that the folks that don't have a huge problem with what President Trump has done, had a huge issue with Sen. Clinton using her own e-mail server. Coincidentally...the people that didn't think that what Sen. Clinton did was NBD...find this to be a huge deal.

Different side of the same coin.

[Flystripper]

Waded into this thread. Yikes. Wrong turn.

But this is a good example of how we have lost the ability to have a discussion, in society, without making things extremely personal.

I do find it interesting that the folks that don't have a huge problem with what President Trump has done, had a huge issue with Sen. Clinton using her own e-mail server. Coincidentally...the people that didn't think that what Sen. Clinton did was NBD...find this to be a huge deal.

Different side of the same coin.

all of it is a big deal. our govt is corrupt AF

[The_Tick]

all of it is a big deal. our govt is corrupt AF

1000%. And it is just going to get worse.

I'm a fan of term limits for all government officials. I am also a huge fan of providing no retirement or stipend after service to the country.

I also would like to see the rules made that a politician can't enforce a policy that they themselves are excluded from.

[frank ryan]

all of it is a big deal. our govt is corrupt AF

No one is defending Clinton. She is also not the President and isn’t doing what Trump is currently doing. Clinton shouldn’t get a pass, but it’s not the same thing, and bringing it up is flirting with whataboutism.

[Moliere]

I’m shocked to find out that Biden, who is basically a career politician in DC, has done some corrupt things. Shocked I tell you!!

What Trump did mérite impeachment, however I’ll probably still vote for him if Warren is the Dem nominee. Job preservation and all

[creekster]

No one is defending Clinton. She is also not the President and isn’t doing what Trump is currently doing. Clinton shouldn’t get a pass, but it’s not the same thing, and bringing it up is flirting with whataboutism.

Flirting with whataboutism?? Well, we wouldn't want THAT, would we? If we catalogued every time a post 'flirted' with a logical fallacy, that's all we would do. Besides, if one argues that each of the positions are equally wrong (as Tick and Flystripper were doing), or that they are both but not equally wrong, it is not really 'whataboutism' because it isn't seeking to avoid addressing the legitimacy of either complaint.

The fact is that what Trump did is pretty bad. Impeachably bad. That doesn't mean that his conduct was the end of democracy as we know it. But it also doesn't mean that anyone should be ignored. In this instance, pointing out how other examples of self-dealing and possible corruption were handled raises the issue of whether the current effort is legitimate or if it is a similarly tainted political effort.

The problem here, in my mind, is that Trump's conduct is exactly what we expect of him. I doubt that anyone, on either side of the aisle, is surprised that he handles calls to other leaders like this. The point being that I doubt many of his supporters will see his phone call as a threat to national security. So we have Adam Schiff, who is probably as much of an idiot and as disingenuous as anyone in Congress has ever been, asserting that this is the end of our country as we know it and his (and other democrats') over the top and histrionic reaction to this situation, especially given that the 'transcript' and whistleblower complaint have been made a part of the public record, will be seen by Trumpists as just one more political grandstand by the left and they will ignore the actual problem and wrong doing. So we will end up with articles of impeachment being sent to the Senate, a senate trial bringing this nation's business to a complete halt, further polarization of the electorate and Trump might STILL be re-elected.

Trump is awful. I truly wish he was not president. But the threat to our nation, IMO, is not trump or his actions, proper and improper, standing alone. The threat is the actions and reactions of his supporters and detractors on each and every issue, making each and every topic partisan and absolute. SIEQ sounded a hopeful note earlier in this thread. I wish I could agree. I just don't see it and I just don't see how we recover from this any time soon. It might take generations.

[Uncle Ted]

The right wing conspiracy version has been pretty thoroughly debunked already.

Biden in his capacity as VP was working with several other countries to try to help Ukraine in light of the Russian invasion and continued military threat. Yet, the previous administration there was pretty corrupt and the US along with the other countries threatened to withhold the help because Ukraine had stopped investigating the corruption. That's the story that seems more true, but I'm sure people will believe what they want.

So Biden's crackhead son earned that $60,000/mo board seat on the Ukrainian energy company all by himself?

[frank ryan]

I’m shocked to find out that Biden, who is basically a career politician in DC, has done some corrupt things. Shocked I tell you!!

What Trump did mérite impeachment, however I’ll probably still vote for him if Warren is the Dem nominee. Job preservation and all

Trump’s policies and behaviors will could jeopardize your job in other ways. He’s impacting our national security.

[PaloAltoCougar]

For the benefit of those (i.e., everyone) who didn't read the conservative publication's essay I linked earlier that focuses on how Trump is trying to gaslight everyone with this faux Joe Biden/Ukraine connection, here's a small summation.

(1) Joe Biden’s son, Hunter, did take consulting work for a Ukrainian oil company, Burisma, that was under investigation by a Ukrainian prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, for the work under the prior Russian-allied regime. This is where the true part of the Trump disinformation comes to an end.

(2) The problem was that Shokin actively stood in the way of international investigations that the U.S. and other democratic reformers were pursuing.

(3) Vice President Biden, U.S. diplomats, and our E.U. allies all called on the prosecutor to be fired so the corrupt oligarchs could be investigated MORE AGGRESSIVELY. This includes the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine calling out by name Mykola Zlochevsky, the oligarch who ran the company Hunter Biden worked for, as someone this prosecutor was letting off the hook.

(4) Donald Trump was allegedly pressuring the Ukrainian government to investigate a domestic political foe on a bogus conspiracy for personal gain. Joe Biden was pressuring the Ukrainian government to root out corruption in their own country and bring about democratic reforms.

(5) For the kids in the back:

PRESSURING A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT TO INTERFERE ON YOUR BEHALF IN DOMESTIC ELECTIONS = VERY BAD.

PRESSURING A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT TO INVESTIGATE CROOKS = GOOD.

[Commando]

I’m shocked to find out that Biden, who is basically a career politician in DC, has done some corrupt things. Shocked I tell you!!

What Trump did mérite impeachment, however I’ll probably still vote for him if Warren is the Dem nominee. Job preservation and all

Trump has done more for my job security than any other president ever. Doesn't mean I'm blind to the human suffering he's causing and reveling in. He can ESAD, and I'll gladly change careers.

[Uncle Ted]

Uh-oh, Joe... tell me it ain't so:

Solomon: These once-secret memos cast doubt on Joe Biden's Ukraine story

Former Vice President Joe Biden, now a 2020 Democratic presidential contender, has locked into a specific story about the controversy in Ukraine.

He insists that, in spring 2016, he strong-armed Ukraine to fire its chief prosecutor solely because Biden believed that official was corrupt and inept, not because the Ukrainian was investigating a natural gas company, Burisma Holdings, that hired Biden's son, Hunter, into a lucrative job.

There's just one problem.

Hundreds of pages of never-released memos and documents - many from inside the American team helping Burisma to stave off its legal troubles - conflict with Biden's narrative.
[...]

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign...-ukraine-story