Social Media Outrage/Cancel Culture

[tooblue]

Agreed. I feel like tooblue is conflating various topics. I don't think he's doing it intentionally, though.

A federal government is not a socialist idea and is not a prerequisite for socialism. In fact, the countries that have embraced socialism the most have rarely had a government like the one envisioned by Madison. Socialism can be implemented in most any type of governmental structure - monarchy, dictatorship, oligarchy, and yes, a federal system like in the United States. But the idea of a federal government is not inherently socialist.

I am not conflating anything. I provided my definition, in context to what Trump is “supposedly” doing. I did not state a federal government is a prerequisite; that is your word not mine. You are, using Swamps words, a bad actor in this circumstance precisely because you have not offered any definition.

[Katy Lied]

When did Marx say ya gotta go through a federal government to get to socialism? It seems that most socialist states have sprung up in countries with a dictator and/or oligarchy.

Marx said that countries need to go through late stage capitalism before they can move to socialism. Lenin said that capitalism was not needed and you can proceed straight to communism.

From a game theory perspective, capitalist actors will absolutely act in their own best interest, and in Wuap's term, this unfettered capitalist incentivism will create a more inefficient, less fair society. As in the Tragedy of the Commons, a capitalist society requires a strong central government to overcome all the free riding that individual capitalist actors will do, and in overcoming individual incentives, will create a better (lets just say more pareto optimal) society. Ummm, not really because it is more ethical or moral to preserve the rights of minorities, but so that capitalists don't eat their young.

[swampfrog]

I am not conflating anything. I provided my definition, in context to what Trump is “supposedly” doing. I did not state a federal government is a prerequisite; that is your word not mine. You are, using Swamps words, a bad actor in this circumstance precisely because you have not offered any definition.

That's not fair. A bad actor is someone who intentionally is using a different definition knowing that the other parties would be unaware of that definition. I don't think that is going on here by anyone involved. I also found your phrasing somewhat awkward but I think I understood the intent.

the very idea of a "federal government" is in fact a socialist idea

That can be parsed quite a few ways, it's not very precise. Pelado asked for a clarification. People are chiming in to help as it's a public discussion.

I read it as any national government is going to have influence on the market. It's unavoidable. Influence does not necessarily mean complete control of. Influence (or regulation) can be considered a tenet of socialist ideas. In order for a free market to exist, something must be in place to uphold its freedom from bad actors both outside and inside that market. That something will influence the market. Intersecting circles in a Venn diagram.

It could also be read as the concept of "federal government" emerges from socialism. One circle fully enclosing the other in a Venn diagram.

Neither one of those may be what was originally intended. So we use dialog to clarify until we reach understanding (but not necessarily agreement).

We should all strive to read one another more charitably.

[BigFatMeanie]

The powerful labour unions that we know today started due to the abhorrent working conditions steel workers faced at the outset of the US era of gilded age capitalism. That period of unfettered capitalism led to incredible social change, and forced an inherently socialist federal government to act to protect citizens. Capitalism unchecked leads to socialist policies and programs that can only be enforced by a federal mandate.

You spell "labor" the euro-weenie way now? It's a sign you've been abroad too long. Maybe it's time to just get it over with and renounce already...

[Jeff Lebowski]

You spell "labor" the euro-weenie way now? It's a sign you've been abroad too long. Maybe it's time to just get it over with and renounce already...

I think tooblue is too far gone now to save. SAD!

[Pelado]

That's not fair. A bad actor is someone who intentionally is using a different definition knowing that the other parties would be unaware of that definition. I don't think that is going on here by anyone involved. I also found your phrasing somewhat awkward but I think I understood the intent.



That can be parsed quite a few ways, it's not very precise. Pelado asked for a clarification. People are chiming in to help as it's a public discussion.

I read it as any national government is going to have influence on the market. It's unavoidable. Influence does not necessarily mean complete control of. Influence (or regulation) can be considered a tenet of socialist ideas. In order for a free market to exist, something must be in place to uphold its freedom from bad actors both outside and inside that market. That something will influence the market. Intersecting circles in a Venn diagram.

It could also be read as the concept of "federal government" emerges from socialism. One circle fully enclosing the other in a Venn diagram.

Neither one of those may be what was originally intended. So we use dialog to clarify until we reach understanding (but not necessarily agreement).

We should all strive to read one another more charitably.

Agreed.

[tooblue]

That's not fair. A bad actor is someone who intentionally is using a different definition knowing that the other parties would be unaware of that definition. I don't think that is going on here by anyone involved. I also found your phrasing somewhat awkward but I think I understood the intent.



That can be parsed quite a few ways, it's not very precise. Pelado asked for a clarification. People are chiming in to help as it's a public discussion.

I read it as any national government is going to have influence on the market. It's unavoidable. Influence does not necessarily mean complete control of. Influence (or regulation) can be considered a tenet of socialist ideas. In order for a free market to exist, something must be in place to uphold its freedom from bad actors both outside and inside that market. That something will influence the market. Intersecting circles in a Venn diagram.

It could also be read as the concept of "federal government" emerges from socialism. One circle fully enclosing the other in a Venn diagram.

Neither one of those may be what was originally intended. So we use dialog to clarify until we reach understanding (but not necessarily agreement).

We should all strive to read one another more charitably.

been on these message boards a long time. There is very little dialogue and charity is a novelty not a norm. I do not believe Pelado was interested a reasonable exchange of ideas.

[Jeff Lebowski]

been on these message boards a long time. There is very little dialogue and charity is a novelty not a norm. I do not believe Pelado was interested a reasonable exchange of ideas.

Yeah. That Pelado dude is super mean.

[Pelado]

Yeah. That Pelado dude is super mean.

He's the worst.

[tooblue]

Yeah. That Pelado dude is super mean.

I don't know if he is super mean, but is he a member of the super secret forum? Mob* rules baby, mob rules!



*sorry, I had to come back and edit in the interest of "precision." I am using the term "mob" not in a mafia, or crime family sense, but specifically in a mob of persons who are impacted in their actions by the groupthink** inherent in being a member of a super secret club.

**I am using the term "groupthink" in terms of the phenomena "that occurs when a group of individuals reaches a consensus without critical reasoning or evaluation of the consequences or alternatives."

Lastly, should I now be providing citations ... what does the group think?

[CardiacCoug]

been on these message boards a long time. There is very little dialogue and charity is a novelty not a norm. I do not believe Pelado was interested a reasonable exchange of ideas.

Funniest thing I have read on this board in a while. Thanks TB!

[tooblue]

Funniest thing I have read on this board in a while. Thanks TB!

and enters the mob ... What's the title of this thread again. Does CougarStadium suffer from it's own *outrage culture?






*Sorry again, I forgot there is a need to be more precise. My sense for the use of the terms "outrage culture" is informed but what can also be referred to as "call-out culture: ... a form of public humiliation or shaming that aims to hold individuals and groups accountable for actions perceived to be offensive by other individuals or groups, who then call attention to this behaviour."

Note: I spelled the word behaviour using British english spelling rules and conventions, and not American spelling rules and conventions.

[Bo Diddley]

and enters the mob ... What's the title of this thread again. Does CougarStadium suffer from it's own outrage culture?

I thought Pelado's question was a fair question.

How do you figure?

To your statement:

the very idea of a "federal government" is in fact a socialist idea

So if that's a fact, convince Pelado. Convince me. It was an interesting statement that made me think. But I'm not convinced.

Even if we were to agree that the next logical step from the formation of a federal government is the enforcement of social policies, that doesn't preclude a federal government from not taking on that role. Is that what the founders envisioned? If so, cite them. Your statement implies that only socialists would envision a federal government. That's too much of a leap for me.

But then perhaps I'm just a part of the mob, so feel free to disregard any of that.

[beefytee]

I don't think there is a more jovial and kind person on the board than Pelado. tooblue, I think you seriously misunderstood his interests.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't think there is a more jovial and kind person on the board than Pelado. tooblue, I think you seriously misunderstood his interests.

Jovial? Yeah, he is jovial.