President Trump: Making America Great Again...

[frank ryan]

This whole Rittenhouse thing is absolutely tragic, and some of the commentary here has reduced this to a cut and dry/black and white case. Apparently, we have some clairvoyants who know the intentions of nerdy 17 year old and the victims. Everyone in this situation made horrible decisions that led to the end results.

This 17 year old should not have been there, that much is clear. He was with adults the whole night, did not any of them know who he was or his age? I kind of get the impression that he just met up with the group who didn't know him previously. Based off of his social media, he was a cop worshipper and Trump supporter. Some people are taking this as evidence enough he was a white supremacist. I don't know. But an armed 17 year old in this situation was not going to end well. If this whole mess is avoided he is probably more emboldened to do it again.I don't know what his home situation is, but there is some explaining to do on how this kid was allowed to go to the powder keg armed. My guess is his parents didn't even know. But there is nothing to praise about this kid for being in this situation. I think I would have known better than to put myself in that situation. And I know my dad wouldn't have let me. But this kid was there, past curfew, in a situation he probably knew would be extremely volatile.

Also, I see many on the left calling the people who were shot as heroes. The right says they were just thugs because each had a history of violent crime. This is too simplistic. But they were there after curfew with people smashing windows and being confrontational. One was armed with a hand gun, another was on camera being extremely confrontational using threatening language. It's possible the final two shooting victims were acting to subdue who they thought was someone intent on shooting more people. But they didn't have to be a part of a riot just like the dumb 17 year old didn't have to be there confronting a riot.

If I was going to put myself into the kids shoes, I would guess that he just wanted to walk around with a gun and feel like a bad ass. If my intention was to go up there to shoot some commies, i probably wouldn't turn tail and run around when someone charges me before shooting him. But who knows, maybe he is nothing but an uncomplicated sociopath at 17.

But what I don't understand is why on earth would you antagonize and chase down someone with a gun? Did they just see him as the kid that he is and just assumed they were going to beat him and teach him a lesson? It boggles my mind. Just entirely stupid. Even the last two shooting victims. He was running away from the crowd and towards police. He isn't turning around and shooting back at you. Why chase down a dude with a gun who just shot someone else and engage him? It was a fatal decision.

The kid shouldn't have been there. He didn't have the maturity to handle himself like the others in the armed group. If the kid wasn't there these 3 people probably wouldn't have been shot. But the charge of 1st degree murder is going to be a tough bar to hurdle.

I don't think the armed group should have there period. They aren't law enforcement and they aren't helping. They are frequently of the racist stripe.

[wapiti]

This is pretty interesting. A lot of people go out of their way to humanize this kid but have no problem celebrating the death of the victims. Look no further than some of Ted's posts. Everyone deserves to be humanized but it seems to be reserved for white suburban nerdy kids. People have gone to jail for longer and for a lot less. I've worked with some people who made stupid choices, but had better excuses than this guy, and they were not treated kindly by the system. I think it's easier to want to explain it away when the offender reminds us more of ourself or someone in our life than other criminals.

The fact that he's a minor is what gets some sympathy from me. He was failed by the adults all around him.

[Uncle Ted]

He seems pretty clear here about his intent.

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Yep.. Pretty clear.

It seems he intended to clean up the democrats sh*t from their "peaceful protesting":

Suspected teen gunman Kyle Rittenhouse spotted cleaning Kenosha graffiti before shooting

The suspected teen shooter who killed two Kenosha protesters and injured a third Tuesday night was photographed cleaning graffiti in the city just hours before the violence.
[...]
Before allegedly being filmed shooting protesters during a tense confrontation, Rittenhouse was spotted joining other volunteers in cleaning graffiti from a high school nearby the Kenosha County Courthouse.
[...]

https://nypost.com/2020/08/26/suspec...ning-graffiti/

I don't why these volunteers are cleaning up after the dumbasss Dems anyway. They should let the low paid government workers do it.

[Uncle Ted]

I don't think the armed group should have there period. They aren't law enforcement and they aren't helping. They are frequently of the racist stripe.

Yeah, the "peaceful protesting" Dems should have been rounded up and forced to clean up their own sh*t instead of letting this group do it...

[Eddie]

Eddie bringing up the whole idea of using a gun to defend your home in the context of this issue is ridiculous my friend. This isn’t a tough one.

Also, nowhere did I make a statement using a firearm always equally murder. Knock that off man.

Again with repeating and attributing something to me that I never said. Please re-read my statements. The only time I made any comparison to defending a home I was very clear in stating said it WAS NOT THE SAME as defending a business. I believe my actual statement wasn't even about a home - it was that I could see defending my family, but if it was AWAY from my home, I'd be walking away. And yet here you are - a second time - saying that I'm calling it the same. Knock it off and actually read what I wrote.

As for the other - I'm asking the question. Under what circumstances is "self-defense" acceptable and under what circumstances is it not?

This kid didn't shoot anyone while defending property. I mean, sure. That's the reason he was there. But that isn't what he was doing when the shooting happened. The first guy was shot chasing him, and as I indicated before, is seen in earlier video antagonizing and making threats. I have no idea what led up to him chasing the kid. The second guy was shot while attacking him with a skateboard. The third guy was shot while attacking him with a gun.

As I've said - I'm not exactly sure how I feel about that. If they were "defending the business" and decided to shoot people who are breaking windows or starting fires, that's a pretty easy call for me. Not OK. As I've said before - I also thought it was dumb for him to be there with his gun. But once he's there - what right, if any, does he have to defend himself? Are people at the riots required to just "take it" if they're attacked? Like I said, I don't know. That's what makes this one hard for me.

[Eddie]

This whole Rittenhouse thing is absolutely tragic, and some of the commentary here has reduced this to a cut and dry/black and white case. Apparently, we have some clairvoyants who know the intentions of nerdy 17 year old and the victims. Everyone in this situation made horrible decisions that led to the end results.

This 17 year old should not have been there, that much is clear. He was with adults the whole night, did not any of them know who he was or his age? I kind of get the impression that he just met up with the group who didn't know him previously. Based off of his social media, he was a cop worshipper and Trump supporter. Some people are taking this as evidence enough he was a white supremacist. I don't know. But an armed 17 year old in this situation was not going to end well. If this whole mess is avoided he is probably more emboldened to do it again.I don't know what his home situation is, but there is some explaining to do on how this kid was allowed to go to the powder keg armed. My guess is his parents didn't even know. But there is nothing to praise about this kid for being in this situation. I think I would have known better than to put myself in that situation. And I know my dad wouldn't have let me. But this kid was there, past curfew, in a situation he probably knew would be extremely volatile.

Also, I see many on the left calling the people who were shot as heroes. The right says they were just thugs because each had a history of violent crime. This is too simplistic. But they were there after curfew with people smashing windows and being confrontational. One was armed with a hand gun, another was on camera being extremely confrontational using threatening language. It's possible the final two shooting victims were acting to subdue who they thought was someone intent on shooting more people. But they didn't have to be a part of a riot just like the dumb 17 year old didn't have to be there confronting a riot.

If I was going to put myself into the kids shoes, I would guess that he just wanted to walk around with a gun and feel like a bad ass. If my intention was to go up there to shoot some commies, i probably wouldn't turn tail and run around when someone charges me before shooting him. But who knows, maybe he is nothing but an uncomplicated sociopath at 17.

But what I don't understand is why on earth would you antagonize and chase down someone with a gun? Did they just see him as the kid that he is and just assumed they were going to beat him and teach him a lesson? It boggles my mind. Just entirely stupid. Even the last two shooting victims. He was running away from the crowd and towards police. He isn't turning around and shooting back at you. Why chase down a dude with a gun who just shot someone else and engage him? It was a fatal decision.

The kid shouldn't have been there. He didn't have the maturity to handle himself like the others in the armed group. If the kid wasn't there these 3 people probably wouldn't have been shot. But the charge of 1st degree murder is going to be a tough bar to hurdle.

That's a pretty good description of where I'm coming from as well.

[Uncle Ted]

Who doesn't like free fireworks?

IqtLGKRT.jpg

Oh, the Dem Antifa kids. Strange... but they like to set things on fire.

[swampfrog]

I imagine you a huge fan of the Black Panthers who defended their property with arms.
Good grief swampfrog. You're assuming that everyone there was rioting and destroying property. You go to olympic levels of effort to afford nuance to those you can identify with.
That fact that your spending time trying to rationalize and justify what this kid is sad.

You're every bit the believer in victimization that SJWs are, it's just a different group of aggrieved people. Bringing an AR to riots (soon it will be peaceful protests if we tolerate this) and shooting people is not ok. Anyone who'd sign off on a minor doing that should have their parenting called in to question.

That's still a misreading of my words. I don't identify with any of them. I am however fully aware that the way people morally view the world varies considerably. It is wisdom to understand the various moral matrices through which people view the world, even if it is not the moral matrix to which one personally adheres or agrees with. I am not justifying or rationalizing that kid, I'm saying this in his mind and others that view the world the way he does, he feels justified--morally justified. We should be very cognizant of what humans are capable of doing when they feel moral justification.

There are people who morally value different things than you and I. When it is understood that culture is partially installed in the human psyche where morality lies it makes it easier to comprehend when people make decisions that are incomprehensible. We've been around this same conversation before, not sure why it keeps failing. We are all victims somewhat of the human condition, innate properties over which we have little control, and the installation of culture and values by family and community when we are young. We are at least partially automatons.

If you become aware of a moral system and understand what it values and holds sacred, you can then understand the trigger events and likely response outcomes. If you draw a cartoon of Mohammed, you will understand and be ready for the cultural backlash. Seeking to understand them is not validating them, not supporting them, not agreeing with them.

[swampfrog]

His community's rights? lol

I'll get to pulling out the other parts of that speech and why I think it's consistent with what I've said. But to start, here's a quote:

“People who are looking at what’s happening in Washington, in Detroit, in Portland and Seattle–they’re getting emboldened because we act like a bunch of punks, too frightened to stand up and protect our own stuff, You’re telling me that someone got the right to tear down property that Tennessee taxpayers paid for? That American taxpayers paid for? And somebody has the right to destroy it, deface it, and tear it down? What kind of people have we become that we can’t protect our own stuff?!”

I'm against vigilantism whether it be in Kenosha or CHOP in Seattle, and I'm sure he is to, so exactly what is he asking for? Tell me what he means by, "...too frightened to stand up and protect our own stuff..." and "What kind of people have we become that we can't protect our own stuff?!"

Here's a small report on Kenosha. In case you didn't understand what the I meant by the rights of a community, as in the citizens that make up the community have the right to expect their property to not end up looking like this. Read the whole thread and note that, "Every single local I spoke to blamed "out of towners" for the worst of the destruction. They didn't offer a huge amount of evidence for this, but it's a blanket consensus."

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[USUC]

So apparently a Trump supporter was shot and killed in Portland last night. Some more LARPer on LARPer violence. Just lovely. This is all going swimmingly.

[Jeff Lebowski]

So apparently a Trump supporter was shot and killed in Portland last night. Some more LARPer on LARPer violence. Just lovely. This is all going swimmingly.

I bet the liberal fake new media will ignore this too. Like and share if you agree!

[frank ryan]

I bet the liberal fake new media will ignore this too. Like and share if you agree!

So apparently a Trump supporter was shot and killed in Portland last night. Some more LARPer on LARPer violence. Just lovely. This is all going swimmingly.

Not much info on the victim other than he was a member of Patriot Prayer, or least had their had on. Their name is euphemistic. Article is worth reading w/ regards to Portland's tinderbox status in general.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/u...-shooting.html

[Walter Sobchak]

Not much info on the victim other than he was a member of Patriot Prayer, or least had their hat on.

Ha! frank showing his biases. I can play too:

"Not much is known about the rape victim, but she was wearing a revealing dress."

[Now who’s the dean?]

President Trump: Making America Great Again...

The founder of Patriot Prayer, a right-wing group whose supporters have frequently clashed with left-wing protesters in Portland, Oregon, said Sunday that the man fatally shot in Oregon's largest city was a supporter of the group and a “good friend.”

http://www.usnews.com/news/us/articl...sh-in-portland

[swampfrog]

In what way? I worked in and lived outside of Memphis. Representative Deberry and his community would have NEVER EVER welcomed armed white vigilante "militia" from Fayette County, Collierville, Millington, Arlington or the white suburbs of Northern Mississippi onto their streets, even during civil unrest.

And Representative Deberry never even suggested such a thing in his eloquent remarks.

Young Kyle armed himself and traveled some distance and inserted himself into a situation in a way that he had no business doing so. He even stated his lethal intent.

I pulled the transcript from the full recorded speech on youtube.

Here are the quotes. Feel free to show what I've missed, because it looks to me like he has condemned the riots and condemned our lack of response to them. I claimed that local authorities had abdicated their responsibility to uphold the law, which includes not allowing the police to do their jobs protecting private and public (community) property.

(It should be clear that the descriptive explanation I wrote of the motivations of some citizens to defend property is not advocacy of the same, but if it's not, Kyle should not have been there.)

First, he provides a description of what effective peaceful protesting looks like.

"I went with my father when he and our neighbor got one of those 'I am a man' signs and went downtown Memphis and watched him stand there proudly with Dr. King and other men and women black and white who had enough courage to stand up against what was wrong. And the way they did it, they had on their suits, their shirts, their ties, pants, and if it was cold their overcoats. They locked arms and they marched peacefully and Dr. King stood for that which was peaceful because the world took a look at what was happening in Memphis, in Chicago, in Detroit, in Washington DC, and all over this country. We changed the entire world and we changed it because those men and women had enough guts, integrity, enough citizenship, and love of country."

What did they do when the riots would start?

"They did it by standing like men and women of integrity and class and common sense and values. When the riots started and folks started burning stuff down that's when my father took my arm and we left. We left because that was not what we were there for. That was not what Dr King was there for. That was not what others who are famous in the civil rights days were there for. This was not peaceful, it was not part of our movement, and it only hurt everything."

What should happen instead of riots?

"That policeman that put his foot on that man's neck was wrong and every one of us in this room decry it. Every one of us in this room condemn it. We say it was wrong and in America we have a system of justice, a system of justice that's going to bring the full impact of the law down upon him, and I think every one of us in this room will support that."

He compares this to the death of Dr. King and the response to that assassination.

"And I remember as we went back to Memphis and all of the riots broke loose everything he stood for, everything he stood for, was all of a sudden being torn down until calmer voices, calmer voices came, and said Dr. King was against this, he was against this, he was against this."

He denounces the constant elevation of race and color in every issue (which is Critical Race Theory).

"My family raised money and sent my dad to Washington for that march well that man stood there and said that he wanted his children judged by the content of their character not the color of their skin and all we do in America right now is talk about color. Every issue, every issue is about race, it's about color, instead of a sitting down at the table like men and women of common sense and common justice and understanding that our enemies are looking with a greedy vigilance upon us as we tear ourselves apart eternally. They have been watching us for 50 years preparing step by step by step by step for us to kill ourselves."

He then again condemns the rioting, vandalism, and destruction of property, specifically asking in addition what kind of people we are when the people committing these crimes are labeled heroes.

"And I may not be back here next year and I'm sure everything I said say is going to be misconstrued and misquoted and used against me in November. Fine, fine, because I stand for my father's legacy. I stand for the men and women who acted like they had some sense, and some courage, and changed this country by being men and women who stood for something. If we don't start standing for something don't you know that the people who are looking at what's happening in Washington, in Detroit, in Portland, and Seattle. They're getting emboldened because we act like a bunch of punks too frightened to stand up and protect our own stuff. You tell me that somebody got the right to tear down property that Tennessee taxpayers paid for? That American taxpayers paid for? And somebody has the right to destroy it, deface it, and tear it down? What kind of people have we become that we can't protect our own stuff and when the heroes are those who violate the law?"

And for those who are stuck at "mostly peaceful protests"? And the attacks on the police?

"Peaceful protest ends peacefully, anarchy ends in chaos and what we see happening right now. Any of us with any common sense, any common sense whatsoever, know that what we see is not peaceful. So we can continue to fool ourselves and mix with words and use rhetoric and public relations in order to frost this stuff over and put a nice picture on what we see. That is frightening, frightening. I have a nephew who is a policeman who talked about getting attacked the other night. You're telling me that somebody has the right to throw feces and urine in the face of those that we as taxpayers pay to protect us and that's okay? What has happened to us if we don't get this right, right now. I've got grandchildren. I don't want to see the country we're going to have 5 10 15 20 years from now if we don't start acting like we got some guts right now brethren sister and friends colleagues--right now.