President Trump: Making America Great Again...

[PaloAltoCougar]

I don't disagree that Trump should stay away from Twitter and that these tweets are beneath the President, but I find the following quite troubling:

1. Someone is being charged and appearing in court due to "insulting words or behavior?" Good thing for old_gregg that he doesn't live in Britain.
2. A Muslim destroys a statue of the Virgin Mary and the person that documented that / shared that is the one inciting religious hatred? It's the other way around.

To point 1, the quoted language doesn't encompass the entire Public Order Offences statute in the UK. In order for a crime to have been committed under that statute, the government would have to prove that the insulting, threatening or abusive words or behavior were intended to either cause the victims to believe that immediate unlawful violence will be used against them or to provoke them to use immediate unlawful violence. It's somewhat similar to U.S. assault laws which make it crime to put a person in fear of a harmful or offensive touching. You shouldn't be bothered by this.

As to point 2, both the perp and the tweeter might be guilty of inciting religious hatred. Years ago a couple of Mormon teeneaged missionaries took pictures of each other sitting in the cradled arms of a large Buddha statue in Thailand, I believe. They were (correctly) convicted of some crime and that was that. But imagine if a Buddhist (or simply an anti-Mo) published the picture throughout a devoutly Buddhist community with the addresses of all LDS church members. Wouldn't that be inciting religious hatred against all Mormons? The stupid act by one individual shouldn't be used to foment hatred against the religion or race of which the knucklehead might be a member.

Trump is a demagogue, and intentionally whips up hatred against Muslims, Mexicans, and other immigrants generally as a means of solidifying his base and increasing his power. I'm struggling with why that's so apparent to me and not to his otherwise well-meaning supporters.

[creekster]

Trump is like a clueless, dumbass uncle posting racist videos on FB. Except he is doing it from the white house. smh.

That is likely the most benign interpretation. Unfiortunately, I am not sure he is all that clueless.

[BlueK]

funny that the hatred trump is concerned with is of the muslim variety.

A old white guy kills people in Vegas and Trump talks about helping the mentally ill.

A non-white person does it and it's a completely different message.

[Omaha 680]

I find this stuff embarrassing, too. I do not approve of his speech, texting, and demeanor much of the time. But there are two important equations:

Substance (what is being done or accomplished) > Form
Trump > Hillary

Also, when you [not you specifically] demonize classy moderates, like Mitt Romney, as greedy, racist, sexist, or even like Hitler, then you get Trump. Trump is not so much the problem as he is a symptom of many deep problems.

Let's clear this shit up: Trump is not > Hillary. In any equation.

Stop writing inequalities and calling them equations.

[Crockett]

To point 1, the quoted language doesn't encompass the entire Public Order Offences statute in the UK. In order for a crime to have been committed under that statute, the government would have to prove that the insulting, threatening or abusive words or behavior were intended to either cause the victims to believe that immediate unlawful violence will be used against them or to provoke them to use immediate unlawful violence. It's somewhat similar to U.S. assault laws which make it crime to put a person in fear of a harmful or offensive touching. You shouldn't be bothered by this.

As to point 2, both the perp and the tweeter might be guilty of inciting religious hatred. Years ago a couple of Mormon teeneaged missionaries took pictures of each other sitting in the cradled arms of a large Buddha statue in Thailand, I believe. They were (correctly) convicted of some crime and that was that. But imagine if a Buddhist (or simply an anti-Mo) published the picture throughout a devoutly Buddhist community with the addresses of all LDS church members. Wouldn't that be inciting religious hatred against all Mormons? The stupid act by one individual shouldn't be used to foment hatred against the religion or race of which the knucklehead might be a member.

Trump is a demagogue, and intentionally whips up hatred against Muslims, Mexicans, and other immigrants generally as a means of solidifying his base and increasing his power. I'm struggling with why that's so apparent to me and not to his otherwise well-meaning supporters.

It's nice to see someone engage in a respectful, constructive dialogue on here, rather than drive by insults. Thank you for that.

Your explanation for #1 is helpful and if that is the standard, then that sounds more reasonable.

#2: As a Mormon, I am sensitive to the argument that we should not paint an entire group or religion with the actions of a few (like FLDS being conflated with LDS, for example). Your example, though, of missionaries taking a careless photo is not the same as the willful destruction of a sacred shrine. We also have plenty of recent examples of Muslim extremists, particularly ISIS and al Qaeda, destroying ancient, Christian historical sites and churches. This is on a different level than a few rogue individuals.

Trump certainly uses demagoguery, as do most politicians. Obama and Hillary, have also done that. Doesn't make it right, but let's not pretend it isn't a common problem.

Regarding Muslims: On the one hand most individual Muslims are good, peace-loving people, but there is also many problematic things within that religion. Islam is animating the behavior of most terror attacks around the world today. It's not true that it's just deranged people that happen to be Muslim. Their faith drives them and supports them in their violent efforts. In many countries Islam is the official religion and their treatment towards, for example, women and gays are atrocious. Where else in the world do they throw suspected gay people off of rooftops? No Christian nation does this. Saudia Arabia is just now allowing women to drive. European countries with large influxes of Muslim immigrant populations are seeing huge spikes in rape and sexual assaults. Where is the middle ground that sees all sides to this issue and is not shut up as a racist / bigot just because one has concerns about some of the things happening under the banner of Islam?

Regarding racists: Actual white supremacists are quite rare. Maybe in the tens of thousands in the entire country? They have little to no impact on national electoral outcomes. Yet, because it is useful as an anti-Trump narrative the support from this crowd is so wildly overblown in the media. Trump did not get elected because of a bunch of racists. That is pure fiction. Most genuine racists live in states that Trump was going to win anyway. They had no impact on the outcome of the election. Trump won because he got enough working class voters in swing states to vote for him based on Trump's jobs message. Most of those swing voters had voted for Obama before, so that suggests strongly that they aren't racist.

I don't think Trump is racist. He has lived in New York for much of his life. He wasn't considered one for decades before running for office. There are plenty of pictures of him hanging out with Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and others. He dated a black girl for some period of time. I think he is mostly insulated and clueless on the matters of race, but I think he actually wants to help the black community:

I think that the term racist is mostly name-calling and used to shut down debate. If something /someone is labeled racist, then I do not even have to evaluate the facts or think through the issues. (That's also demagoguery.)

Regarding Mexicans: I don't think what Trump is doing is based on hatred of Mexicans. I think that open borders with no control on who's coming and going is dangerous stuff. No one was willing to address it before, but a lot of people in border states had major concerns, and Trump was one of the few that said he was willing to address the issue. I wouldn't mind finding a legal path for large numbers of Mexicans and Latin Americans to emigrate to America, or provide work permits so they can come and go, but at least we know when and who. I travel to Latin America regularly for work and I totally understand people wanting to come here for a new and better life. However, we can't let in everyone that wants to come here, sadly, so we need some control over this. A wall might be the only way. (Fences can make great neighbors, right?) Also, I think Democrats have tried to exploit this issue to gain / import new voters, without considering what is best for the country.

[Crockett]

A old white guy kills people in Vegas and Trump talks about helping the mentally ill.

A non-white person does it and it's a completely different message.

Oh brother.

Who are the real racists? Someone who sees race in everything even when race has nothing to do with it? That's where you are headed.

[creekster]

It's nice to see someone engage in a respectful, constructive dialogue on here, rather than drive by insults. Thank you for that.

Your explanation for #1 is helpful and if that is the standard, then that sounds more reasonable.

#2: As a Mormon, I am sensitive to the argument that we should not paint an entire group or religion with the actions of a few (like FLDS being conflated with LDS, for example). Your example, though, of missionaries taking a careless photo is not the same as the willful destruction of a sacred shrine. We also have plenty of recent examples of Muslim extremists, particularly ISIS and al Qaeda, destroying ancient, Christian historical sites and churches. This is on a different level than a few rogue individuals.

Trump certainly uses demagoguery, as do most politicians. Obama and Hillary, have also done that. Doesn't make it right, but let's not pretend it isn't a common problem.

Regarding Muslims: On the one hand most individual Muslims are good, peace-loving people, but there is also many problematic things within that religion. Islam is animating the behavior of most terror attacks around the world today. It's not true that it's just deranged people that happen to be Muslim. Their faith drives them and supports them in their violent efforts. In many countries Islam is the official religion and their treatment towards, for example, women and gays are atrocious. Where else in the world do they throw suspected gay people off of rooftops? No Christian nation does this. Saudia Arabia is just now allowing women to drive. European countries with large influxes of Muslim immigrant populations are seeing huge spikes in rape and sexual assaults. Where is the middle ground that sees all sides to this issue and is not shut up as a racist / bigot just because one has concerns about some of the things happening under the banner of Islam?

Regarding racists: Actual white supremacists are quite rare. Maybe in the tens of thousands in the entire country? They have little to no impact on national electoral outcomes. Yet, because it is useful as an anti-Trump narrative the support from this crowd is so wildly overblown in the media. Trump did not get elected because of a bunch of racists. That is pure fiction. Most genuine racists live in states that Trump was going to win anyway. They had no impact on the outcome of the election. Trump won because he got enough working class voters in swing states to vote for him based on Trump's jobs message. Most of those swing voters had voted for Obama before, so that suggests strongly that they aren't racist.

I don't think Trump is racist. He has lived in New York for much of his life. He wasn't considered one for decades before running for office. There are plenty of pictures of him hanging out with Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and others. He dated a black girl for some period of time. I think he is mostly insulated and clueless on the matters of race, but I think he actually wants to help the black community:

I think that the term racist is mostly name-calling and used to shut down debate. If something /someone is labeled racist, then I do not even have to evaluate the facts or think through the issues. (That's also demagoguery.)

Regarding Mexicans: I don't think what Trump is doing is based on hatred of Mexicans. I think that open borders with no control on who's coming and going is dangerous stuff. No one was willing to address it before, but a lot of people in border states had major concerns, and Trump was one of the few that said he was willing to address the issue. I wouldn't mind finding a legal path for large numbers of Mexicans and Latin Americans to emigrate to America, or provide work permits so they can come and go, but at least we know when and who. I travel to Latin America regularly for work and I totally understand people wanting to come here for a new and better life. However, we can't let in everyone that wants to come here, sadly, so we need some control over this. A wall might be the only way. (Fences can make great neighbors, right?) Also, I think Democrats have tried to exploit this issue to gain / import new voters, without considering what is best for the country.

I don't think you are wrong about some of these issues, but I think you are imbuing Trump with too much credit. The problem is not just with the policy that Trump is implementing but with the way he does it. Why those three videos? Why the pocahontas joke in that setting at that assembly? His conduct reveals more than his policies. While I am not opposed to many things he wants to do or has done, I find him revolting and it seems very hard for me to find a way to argue any longer that he is anything other than a relic of a more racist time who retains those racist beliefs. I am not sure if he is dumb or if he just doesn't care or if he is a clever demagogue. For most purposes, it doesnt matter. We can only hope that his policies and behavior will provide some benefit and result in some advantage over time. His personal style and presence offer none.

[Commando]

Stop writing inequalities and calling them equations.

[frank ryan]

White supremacy is more en vogue than at any other time in my life. Unfortunately they are not some endangered species and hide behind securing the borders, stopping Islamic extremism, preserving white culture and countering hyper pc behaviors.

Charlottesville brought out a lot of folks.

Gorka was one clear example of a racist Trump advisor. Trump dated a black lady so therefore he isn’t racist? That’s a reach when there is far more examples of racist statements and actions.

[Commando]

Just watched that Matt Lauer/ Bill O'Reilly interview where O'Reilly seems incensed that "the Left and P.C. conspirators" are trying to rewrite American history because they believe it was founded in White Supremacy-- he thinks that's why we're hearing that word a lot. That's scary-- this indicates that essentially what Fox News has been doing is push back against the White Supremacy shamers in the name of patriotism. The result? Lots of Fox News patriots with strong white supremacist sympathies. Trump capitalized on that hard.

[BlueK]

Oh brother.

Who are the real racists? Someone who sees race in everything even when race has nothing to do with it? That's where you are headed.

there is a difference in his language. That's a problem whether he's a racist or not. Do we need to bring out the actual quotes?

[frank ryan]

there is a difference in his language. That's a problem whether he's a racist or not. Do we need to bring out the actual quotes?

There is plenty of evidence Trump is a racist (as if he current words and actions aren't proof enough). He's not going explicitly announce he's racist, and I think that is the standard for folks like Crockett.

Going back to his childhood, his father was arrested for his violent participation in a KKK riot.

Trump was successfully sued for discriminating against minority tenets. He refused to apologize for his media campaign against 5 black men falsely accused of rape. Former employees said that at his casinos, when he would visit minority employees were removed from the floor. Plenty of people have shared their anecdotes about Trump being racist. Allegedly, he used the N-word in regards to one of his contestants of the apprentice. He was given a book of Hitler's speeches (which he doesn't deny) and according to one of his exes he kept it by his bedside and read it frequently. People need to stop deluding themselves that Trump isn't racist and merely immature. His response to Charlottesville was pretty damning. It was like pulling teeth to get him to criticize racists, and even then he qualified, and said some of them were "fine people."

He's racist and misogynistic, don't dance around that.

[BlueK]

There is plenty of evidence Trump is a racist (as if he current words and actions aren't proof enough). He's not going explicitly announce he's racist, and I think that is the standard for folks like Crockett.

Going back to his childhood, his father was arrested for his violent participation in a KKK riot.

Trump was successfully sued for discriminating against minority tenets. Plenty of people have shared their anecdotes about Trump being racist. Allegedly, he used the N-word in regards to one of his contestants of the apprentice. He was given a book of Hitler's speeches (which he doesn't deny) and according to one of his exes he kept it by his bedside and read it frequently. People need to stop deluding themselves that Trump isn't racist and merely immature. His response to Charlottesville was pretty damning. It was like pulling teeth to get him to criticize racists, and even then he qualified, and said some of them were "fine people."

I want to see him in the white robes at a KKK rally. And even then he might still qualify as one of the "many fine people" who were there, right?

[old_gregg]

It's nice to see someone engage in a respectful, constructive dialogue on here, rather than drive by insults. Thank you for that.

Your explanation for #1 is helpful and if that is the standard, then that sounds more reasonable.

#2: As a Mormon, I am sensitive to the argument that we should not paint an entire group or religion with the actions of a few (like FLDS being conflated with LDS, for example). Your example, though, of missionaries taking a careless photo is not the same as the willful destruction of a sacred shrine. We also have plenty of recent examples of Muslim extremists, particularly ISIS and al Qaeda, destroying ancient, Christian historical sites and churches. This is on a different level than a few rogue individuals.

Trump certainly uses demagoguery, as do most politicians. Obama and Hillary, have also done that. Doesn't make it right, but let's not pretend it isn't a common problem.

Regarding Muslims: On the one hand most individual Muslims are good, peace-loving people, but there is also many problematic things within that religion. Islam is animating the behavior of most terror attacks around the world today. It's not true that it's just deranged people that happen to be Muslim. Their faith drives them and supports them in their violent efforts. In many countries Islam is the official religion and their treatment towards, for example, women and gays are atrocious. Where else in the world do they throw suspected gay people off of rooftops? No Christian nation does this. Saudia Arabia is just now allowing women to drive. European countries with large influxes of Muslim immigrant populations are seeing huge spikes in rape and sexual assaults. Where is the middle ground that sees all sides to this issue and is not shut up as a racist / bigot just because one has concerns about some of the things happening under the banner of Islam?

Regarding racists: Actual white supremacists are quite rare. Maybe in the tens of thousands in the entire country? They have little to no impact on national electoral outcomes. Yet, because it is useful as an anti-Trump narrative the support from this crowd is so wildly overblown in the media. Trump did not get elected because of a bunch of racists. That is pure fiction. Most genuine racists live in states that Trump was going to win anyway. They had no impact on the outcome of the election. Trump won because he got enough working class voters in swing states to vote for him based on Trump's jobs message. Most of those swing voters had voted for Obama before, so that suggests strongly that they aren't racist.

I don't think Trump is racist. He has lived in New York for much of his life. He wasn't considered one for decades before running for office. There are plenty of pictures of him hanging out with Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and others. He dated a black girl for some period of time. I think he is mostly insulated and clueless on the matters of race, but I think he actually wants to help the black community:

I think that the term racist is mostly name-calling and used to shut down debate. If something /someone is labeled racist, then I do not even have to evaluate the facts or think through the issues. (That's also demagoguery.)

Regarding Mexicans: I don't think what Trump is doing is based on hatred of Mexicans. I think that open borders with no control on who's coming and going is dangerous stuff. No one was willing to address it before, but a lot of people in border states had major concerns, and Trump was one of the few that said he was willing to address the issue. I wouldn't mind finding a legal path for large numbers of Mexicans and Latin Americans to emigrate to America, or provide work permits so they can come and go, but at least we know when and who. I travel to Latin America regularly for work and I totally understand people wanting to come here for a new and better life. However, we can't let in everyone that wants to come here, sadly, so we need some control over this. A wall might be the only way. (Fences can make great neighbors, right?) Also, I think Democrats have tried to exploit this issue to gain / import new voters, without considering what is best for the country.

oh boy.

[Jeff Lebowski]

oh boy.

Drive-by insult!