The 2020 Presidential Election Primary Thread

[tooblue]

I fail to understand your point. We should forgive her debt because she is going to be a doctor and, dammit, doctors are entitled to live better than most? Look, I agree completely that the price of tuition is nuts. I have some up close and personal knowledge about it. But the market is distorted right now and a large part of the reason why is the easy availability of low cost loans. Deciding to forgive them, apart from the inherent inequity of such a move, would be exactly the wrong message to send to schools, more recent graduates and prospective students.

Do you know what happens when the government forgives students loans? They keep doing it—three times in four years:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stu...-off-1.4539426

Post secondary education is cheaper in Canada. For comparisons sake, medical school (for Canadian residents) can be as little as $10,000 cdn (or under) a year or as much as $20,000 cdn a year. I have two sons graduating this spring, one with a bachelors degree in bio-medical engineering, the other with a college diploma in Multimedia Design.

Both of them have less than $7000 in school debt because neither have had to take out a loan in the past year. They are both older (returned missionaries), married, living on their own and thus have received grants that paid off their full tuition and fees. They also both work part-time while going to school and in the summers between school years and prior to getting married installed alarm systems for Vivint in Western Canada.

It's a great situation for them, but regardless of how cheap eduction is many students still default on their loans, especially when there is no real penalty for not paying off the loan.

EDIT: One of my two daughter-laws will graduate this spring with a degree in psychology. Her parents are originally from Guatemala. She is a returned missionary and has lived on her own since she was 18. If rent wasn't so high, she would've made money off the grants she has received. My other daughter in-law graduated last year with a college diploma in lab technologies. She has no debt to pay off, and works at the local hospital mostly doing phlebotomy.

[YOhio]

I never once said a doctor's loan should be forgiven. I only brought up my daughter's future debt as an example that tuition in general is rising way out of proportion of income potential. And it is affecting career choices.

Don't interrupt an angry boomer when he's arguing against a point he really wants to believe you're making.

[creekster]

I never once said a doctor's loan should be forgiven. I only brought up my daughter's future debt as an example that tuition in general is rising way out of proportion of income potential. And it is affecting career choices.

I said I didn't understand your point. All you keant is that tuition out of control? Yes, that is clearly part of the problem. Also people going to college that shouldn't be going. And so forth. No matter how you slice it, forgiving incurred debt is not a good idea.

[creekster]

Don't interrupt an angry boomer when he's arguing against a point he really wants to believe you're making.

Your reading skills match your humor; fair to middling and only occasionally on-point. IOW, still better than my typing.

[creekster]

Is it really, though? Do we have any hard data for this?

Is it a bad thing if it is? If it doesn't make sense for you to choose a career in a field because you can't afford the schooling then perhaps you shouldn't pursue it.

[Northwestcoug]

Is it really, though? Do we have any hard data for this?

Sure. A recent Medscape survey of residents found that 41% of residents said that their future earnings were extremely/very influential in their specialty choice. In the same survey, almost half of primary care residents plan to specialize. I doubt it's much a stretch to conclude that debt plays a significant part in those choices.

https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2...port-6010044#1

Here's an article that found among 3000 med students, those that had higher debt loads than their peers were more likely to choose specialties based on income, and were less interested in pursuing primary care.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4229497/

I think it's clear that more med students would choose primary care if their debt were less. I know it's hard to sympathize with doctors whining about debt and income, but debt has a real impact on career choices in medicine. As for my assertion that increased debt affects career choices in general, maybe our lawyers could opine on that.

Don't interrupt an angry boomer when he's arguing against a point he really wants to believe you're making.

[Northwestcoug]

I said I didn't understand your point. All you keant is that tuition out of control? Yes, that is clearly part of the problem. Also people going to college that shouldn't be going. And so forth. No matter how you slice it, forgiving incurred debt is not a good idea.

Well when you said this:

We should forgive her debt because she is going to be a doctor and, dammit, doctors are entitled to live better than most?

It sure sounded like you thought I'm a proponent of loan forgiveness for doctors. So I guess you're not alone; I don't understand your point either.

[Northwestcoug]

Do you know what happens when the government forgives students loans? They keep doing it—three times in four years:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stu...-off-1.4539426

Post secondary education is cheaper in Canada. For comparisons sake, medical school (for Canadian residents) can be as little as $10,000 cdn (or under) a year or as much as $20,000 cdn a year. I have two sons graduating this spring, one with a bachelors degree in bio-medical engineering, the other with a college diploma in Multimedia Design.

Both of them have less than $7000 in school debt because neither have had to take out a loan in the past year. They are both older (returned missionaries), married, living on their own and thus have received grants that paid off their full tuition and fees. They also both work part-time while going to school and in the summers between school years and prior to getting married installed alarm systems for Vivint in Western Canada.

It's a great situation for them, but regardless of how cheap eduction is many students still default on their loans, especially when there is no real penalty for not paying off the loan.

EDIT: One of my two daughter-laws will graduate this spring with a degree in psychology. Her parents are originally from Guatemala. She is a returned missionary and has lived on her own since she was 18. If rent wasn't so high, she would've made money off the grants she has received. My other daughter in-law graduated last year with a college diploma in lab technologies. She has no debt to pay off, and works at the local hospital mostly doing phlebotomy.

When I was up yonder north for med school, my Quebec colleagues paid the same tuition as every other post-secondary student. At the time, I thought it was crazy that a med student would pay the same tuition as an English major. I still think it's crazy, but less so. In a perfect world, socialized medicine would help cut costs down by allowing docs to graduate with less debt, which would also mean the government could contain costs by paying them less. Quebec docs aren't making nearly as much as their American counterparts, and probably even less than the rest of Canada. But they aren't starving. And most of them aren't worried about paying off their debt.

(Currently Quebec med students pay more for tuition than their BA counterparts. But not by much.)

[Jeff Lebowski]

Sure. A recent Medscape survey of residents found that 41% of residents said that their future earnings were extremely/very influential in their specialty choice. In the same survey, almost half of primary care residents plan to specialize. I doubt it's much a stretch to conclude that debt plays a significant part in those choices.

https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2...port-6010044#1

Here's an article that found among 3000 med students, those that had higher debt loads than their peers were more likely to choose specialties based on income, and were less interested in pursuing primary care.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4229497/

I think it's clear that more med students would choose primary care if their debt were less. I know it's hard to sympathize with doctors whining about debt and income, but debt has a real impact on career choices in medicine. As for my assertion that increased debt affects career choices in general, maybe our lawyers could opine on that.

Gotcha.

Your daughter is in luck. All she has to do is agree to practice in a rural or underserved urban area for five years and her entire debt will be forgiven. Not to mention she will pull down a nice salary while doing so.

Also, in my son's case, many of the places he looked at while not part of the federal incentive program still offered substantial debt payment as a bonus for signing a contract. I.e., the market is working to address the shortage. Imagine that.

[Northwestcoug]

Gotcha.

Your daughter is in luck. All she has to do is agree to practice in a rural or underserved urban area for five years and her entire debt will be forgiven. Not to mention she will pull down a nice salary while doing so.

Also, in my son's case, many of the places he looked at while not part of the federal incentive program still offered substantial debt payment as a bonus for signing a contract. I.e., the market is working to address the shortage. Imagine that.

Minor correction: most of the loan forgiveness programs forgive federal student debt, not your entire debt amount. This is typically about half of most debt loads. Not an insignificant amount, but still, not everything.

Yes, the market can correct. It's part of the solution. But so is some form of tuition control, which likely means government intervention.

[Moliere]

It may be that I have more than a middling understand of economics and finance, but I fail to understand how anyone can rack up over $50k in college debt while getting a four year degree. Someone working part time can easily pay living expenses and instate tuition at most schools is under $10k/year (at least in Texas it’s around there). Add in the opportunity to work full time in the summer and you can easily pay for books, fees and even save a bit for the emergency expense.

Now, if someone decided to go an even more cheap route, community colleges are incredibly cheap and once you have an associates you can transfer to a four year school and knock out a bachelors by paying around $20k in total for tuition. $20k isn’t crippling student loan debt.

It seems that ore often than not the crippling student debt is more the result of poor choices made by the individual than it is a product of the system.

If someone wants to go to private school and pay $40k per year then sure, that can add up quick, but an easy solution is to not go that route unless you will end up in a position to pay it off.

Maybe high schools should have a crash course on college, tuition, and what it means to make adult level decisions once you are an adult.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It may be that I have more than a middling understand of economics and finance, but I fail to understand how anyone can rack up over $50k in college debt while getting a four year degree. Someone working part time can easily pay living expenses and instate tuition at most schools is under $10k/year (at least in Texas it’s around there). Add in the opportunity to work full time in the summer and you can easily pay for books, fees and even save a bit for the emergency expense.

Now, if someone decided to go an even more cheap route, community colleges are incredibly cheap and once you have an associates you can transfer to a four year school and knock out a bachelors by paying around $20k in total for tuition. $20k isn’t crippling student loan debt.

It seems that ore often than not the crippling student debt is more the result of poor choices made by the individual than it is a product of the system.

If someone wants to go to private school and pay $40k per year then sure, that can add up quick, but an easy solution is to not go that route unless you will end up in a position to pay it off.

Maybe high schools should have a crash course on college, tuition, and what it means to make adult level decisions once you are an adult.

Preach.

Moliere, I hereby grant you honorary membership in the Boomer club. YO, Get this man an animated GIF!

[Moliere]

The 2020 Presidential Election Primary Thread

Preach.

Moliere, I hereby grant you honorary membership in the Boomer club. YO, Get this man an animated GIF!

I’m in the generation that has to pay for your retirement (while knowing my retirement benefits will be significantly smaller once I get there) and nwc’s kids med school while also paying off frank Ryan’s college loans.

[Northwestcoug]

It may be that I have more than a middling understand of economics and finance, but I fail to understand how anyone can rack up over $50k in college debt while getting a four year degree. Someone working part time can easily pay living expenses and instate tuition at most schools is under $10k/year (at least in Texas it’s around there). Add in the opportunity to work full time in the summer and you can easily pay for books, fees and even save a bit for the emergency expense.

Now, if someone decided to go an even more cheap route, community colleges are incredibly cheap and once you have an associates you can transfer to a four year school and knock out a bachelors by paying around $20k in total for tuition. $20k isn’t crippling student loan debt.

It seems that ore often than not the crippling student debt is more the result of poor choices made by the individual than it is a product of the system.

If someone wants to go to private school and pay $40k per year then sure, that can add up quick, but an easy solution is to not go that route unless you will end up in a position to pay it off.

Maybe high schools should have a crash course on college, tuition, and what it means to make adult level decisions once you are an adult.

Not everywhere is Texas, bro. Tuition for Oregon universities is ~10K/year. And that's even with Uncle Phil's money subsidizing U of O.

[Moliere]

Not everywhere is Texas, bro. Tuition for Oregon universities is ~10K/year. And that's even with Uncle Phil's money subsidizing U of O.

Seems like they are all pretty much around $10k. I guess my point stands.