The 2020 Presidential Election Primary Thread

[Jeff Lebowski]

Where did you get that number? That seems very high.

Inflation adjusted to 2013 dollars. Ditto for the tuition number.

[snowcat]

Where did you get that number? That seems very high.

Per the US Department of Commerce median family income in 1973 was $12,050.

https://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-093.pdf

$3500 represents 29% of the median family income.

[PaloAltoCougar]

I'm not in favor of wiping out loans. That said, I'll make a small counterpoint to yours. In 1973 (I'll just pick that year because it's the year BYU Law School first opened its doors) the median family income in the US was approximately $57,000. Average resident tuition at a public law school was roughly $3,500, or about 6% of the median family income. In 2013, those numbers adjust to $25,000 for tuition and $65,000 for income. In other words, one year of law school tuition was about 38% of the median family income in 2013.

So don't put your shoulder out trying to pat yourself on the back, as perhaps you benefited from more than just your own fiscal responsibility.

I don't disagree, in part because I received some assistance from generous parents (the Greatest Generation!) so I'm very wary of being too self-congratulatory. But while tuition has risen substantially faster than real income, I wonder if easy money through loans and government grants haven't be at least partly to blame for the growing gap. Forgiving billions in loans may only exacerbate that.

P.S. I wrote my previous post with the hope and expectation YO would provide a nifty riposte. God is in his heaven and all is well on the board. Plus I''m sort of glad frank has picked up where the late Robin Finderson left off with the boomer-bashing. At my advanced age it's like a textual defibrillator to get me going in the morning.

[snowcat]

Inflation adjusted to 2013 dollars. Ditto for the tuition number.

Ok, makes sense.

[frank ryan]

I don't disagree, in part because I received some assistance from generous parents (the Greatest Generation!) so I'm very wary of being too self-congratulatory. But while tuition has risen substantially faster than real income, I wonder if easy money through loans and government grants haven't be at least partly to blame for the growing gap. Forgiving billions in loans may only exacerbate that.

P.S. I wrote my previous post with the hope and expectation YO would provide a nifty riposte. God is in his heaven and all is well on the board. Plus I''m sort of glad frank has picked up where the late Robin Finderson left off with the boomer-bashing. At my advanced age it's like a textual defibrillator to get me going in the morning.

That is not something most have access to. People with generous parents are least likely to be impacted by the current state of affairs. I'm glad that was your experience, and anectdotes matter, but be careful not to assume the choices were so clear for others, let alone their circumstances. Especially those who lacked the same background.

That's the first harsh thing I've generalized about boomers, but this student loan problem is about more than a lack of bootstrap mentality or work-ethic.

Anyway, everyone can get back talking about lazy, spoiled snowflake kids who need to be reminded to internalize their failures.

[Northwestcoug]

My daughter is looking at a hefty tuition for med school (a bragging post to come later!). It is more than twice as much as the 'expensive' school I was looking at 20 years ago. If she also gets accepted to her in-state school, it will only be ~12,000/year cheaper at 42K a year. Back in my day, U of U tuition was ~7K (I think). Tuition has skyrocketed, and incomes have not.

No question she will be able to pay her loans back. But tuition costs have real-life consequences. She has written off family medicine and peds before day 1 of med school, simply because it will be that much harder to pay off her loans. Yes, there are loan pay-back programs that would help her if she didn't do a specialty. But she's already 'looking forward' to an almost inevitable salary decrease for most docs in the future, which is just another hassle she doesn't want to worry about to try to make a general practice work.

[Jeff Lebowski]

My daughter is looking at a hefty tuition for med school (a bragging post to come later!). It is more than twice as much as the 'expensive' school I was looking at 20 years ago. If she also gets accepted to her in-state school, it will only be ~12,000/year cheaper at 42K a year. Back in my day, U of U tuition was ~7K (I think). Tuition has skyrocketed, and incomes have not.

No question she will be able to pay her loans back. But tuition costs have real-life consequences. She has written off family medicine and peds before day 1 of med school, simply because it will be that much harder to pay off her loans. Yes, there are loan pay-back programs that would help her if she didn't do a specialty. But she's already 'looking forward' to an almost inevitable salary decrease for most docs in the future, which is just another hassle she doesn't want to worry about to try to make a general practice work.

Meh. My son is an internist and they are on track to pay off the med school debt in 3-4 years. That includes a new home they purchased. It is still a great gig financially.

[Applejack]

My daughter is looking at a hefty tuition for med school (a bragging post to come later!). It is more than twice as much as the 'expensive' school I was looking at 20 years ago. If she also gets accepted to her in-state school, it will only be ~12,000/year cheaper at 42K a year. Back in my day, U of U tuition was ~7K (I think). Tuition has skyrocketed, and incomes have not.

No question she will be able to pay her loans back. But tuition costs have real-life consequences. She has written off family medicine and peds before day 1 of med school, simply because it will be that much harder to pay off her loans. Yes, there are loan pay-back programs that would help her if she didn't do a specialty. But she's already 'looking forward' to an almost inevitable salary decrease for most docs in the future, which is just another hassle she doesn't want to worry about to try to make a general practice work.

:sadviolin:

[Northwestcoug]

Meh. My son is an internist and they are on track to pay off the med school debt in 3-4 years. That includes a new home they purchased. It is still a great gig financially.

Of course it is. Like I said, she will be able to pay her debt off. But it's even better when your tuition is manageable. If your total debt at graduation hovers around 300K+, it becomes more daunting to pay that off with a internist's salary in a desirable place to live.

:sadviolin:

I knew that would come. I'll own it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Of course it is. Like I said, she will be able to pay her debt off. But it's even better when your tuition is manageable. If your total debt at graduation hovers around 300K+, it becomes more daunting to pay that off with a internist's salary in a desirable place to live.

Ouch!

[Northwestcoug]

Ouch!

[creekster]

Of course it is. Like I said, she will be able to pay her debt off. But it's even better when your tuition is manageable. If your total debt at graduation hovers around 300K+, it becomes more daunting to pay that off with a internist's salary in a desirable place to live.



I knew that would come. I'll own it.

I fail to understand your point. We should forgive her debt because she is going to be a doctor and, dammit, doctors are entitled to live better than most? Look, I agree completely that the price of tuition is nuts. I have some up close and personal knowledge about it. But the market is distorted right now and a large part of the reason why is the easy availability of low cost loans. Deciding to forgive them, apart from the inherent inequity of such a move, would be exactly the wrong message to send to schools, more recent graduates and prospective students.

[Donuthole]

Where did you get that number? That seems very high.

Inflation adjusted to 2013 dollars. Ditto for the tuition number.

Per the US Department of Commerce median family income in 1973 was $12,050.

https://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-093.pdf

$3500 represents 29% of the median family income.

Yeah, sorry, all numbers adjusted for inflation at 2014$.

[Northwestcoug]

I fail to understand your point. We should forgive her debt because she is going to be a doctor and, dammit, doctors are entitled to live better than most? Look, I agree completely that the price of tuition is nuts. I have some up close and personal knowledge about it. But the market is distorted right now and a large part of the reason why is the easy availability of low cost loans. Deciding to forgive them, apart from the inherent inequity of such a move, would be exactly the wrong message to send to schools, more recent graduates and prospective students.

I never once said a doctor's loan should be forgiven. I only brought up my daughter's future debt as an example that tuition in general is rising way out of proportion of income potential. And it is affecting career choices.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I never once said a doctor's loan should be forgiven. I only brought up my daughter's future debt as an example that tuition in general is rising way out of proportion of income potential. And it is affecting career choices.

Is it really, though? Do we have any hard data for this?