You are warned, Hallelujah

[wuapinmon]

There are some people who if you don't agree with their opinion on an issue such as immigration, it automatically makes you a biggot or racist. Same thing happens if you don't agree with their opinion on gay marriage. They have become so enamored with their opinion, that anything contrary to that means the other person can be called names for having the opposing opinion.

After a couple of back and forths, if you haven't convinced them you aren't a racist, biggot or homo-phobe, you will continue to waste your breath.

Just go ahead and say 'wuapinmon.'

[byu71]

Just go ahead and say 'wuapinmon.'

If I had been thinking of you alone, I would have said "wuapinmon". Since I wasn't thinking of you alone, I felt no need to mention your name.

[The Wankster]

This is an interesting thread to me. Immigration and the US policy has been a big part of my life the last 2.5 years. It's impacted my family greatly. Here are a few of my thoughts on the topic:

1- A few years before 9/11 the US looked for ways to add jobs to and to stimulate the economy especially in hard hit areas of the country. What happened was several call centers were created and staffed with minimum wage employees who are not given access to the Immigration systems. This creates a lot of bottle necks.

2- USCIS has lost a lot of the local say in things. Everything goes through National clearing houses now. I've worked with two local USICS departments and both of them gave me the same story. National clearing houses are told to stall out the process.

3- Getting a visa to visit let alone to move to the US is expensive and completely up to the person doing the interview. People representing the US in our embassies are an embarrassment. They're rude and my wife was rejected her first time applying. The cost was $100 USD. This is about two weeks of wages for the average Filipino. No reason was given. When she asked why she was ignored and the agent in the glass box just kept asking for the next applicatant. She applied again and again paid the fee. I went with her the second time and she received a visa. Now mind you, we were legally married at the time and had submitted her permanent residency paper work to the USCIS but she was still originally rejected from visiting the US.

4- My wife has now received a Green Card. The total cost of legally obtaining that document not including legal fees was a little over $2000. Obviously this was a need for our family and we were blessed enough to be in position to pay the fees, but how many in third world countries have $2000 and two years to four years of wait time available? The US has turned immigration into a money maker and it is causing a lot of own problems.

5- This is a great country. There but the US doesn't have a patent on talented, hard working, honorable citizens. This country was founded on open arms and opportunity for all. That ship has sailed by and large and it is sad. Now immigrants are looked at as criminals when 100 years ago they were success stories. We've taken the human element out of the decision making. The impact that it has on families goes unspoken by media and politicians for the most part. That is disappointing.

100 Years ago the Gov. wasn't giving free food, health care, housing, etc.... Away to people coming to Amerika, it was in fact a land of opportunity, not a land of freebies there for the taking.

I hired a non english speaking person of mexican descent to work for me a while back, we agreed that I would pay him $12.00 per hour for the work he would do.

2 Weeks later he comes in bringing a form for me to fill out that is for his elegibility for his wife receiving Medicare, the stipulation was that he could only be making up to $8.00 per hour.

I informed this individual that I would only be paying him $8 per hour until this medicare issue was resolved, and he said fine. Now I must say that I don't speak much Spanish, and his command of English was worse than my Spanish, so the interpretation was surely lost, other than I was implicit he would only earn $8 per hour.

2 months later we wrap up the project and he comes looking for his last check, and upon receiving it is pissed off to no end. He is standing there insisting that I pay him the difference between the $8 and $12, and that I am a *thief* and took advantage of him.

Needless to say you can see how when dealing with this issue up close and personal, it is difficult to get all warm and fuzzy when talking about the immigration issue.

How many other employers would just pay the $12 and not even worry about what is going on with the medicare?

I am thinking this is a much larger problem than most people realize, and it would appear that in these times there are allot of people out there taking advantage of the situation.

[Indy Coug]

The market did adjust.....otherwise all these jobs would go overseas....because the wages can only rise so high before it becomes uneconomical to grow onions in California.

There is only so much arable land around. The US is much more efficient in terms work required to farm land as well in terms of yield per acre. Protectionism doesn't do anyone any favors. Unlike tennis shoe and rubber duckie manufacture, you can't just outsource millions and millions of acres of agricultural output simply because it got more expensive to produce food in the US.

[byu71]

100 Years ago the Gov. wasn't giving free food, health care, housing, etc.... Away to people coming to Amerika, it was in fact a land of opportunity, not a land of freebies there for the taking.

I hired a non english speaking person of mexican descent to work for me a while back, we agreed that I would pay him $12.00 per hour for the work he would do.

2 Weeks later he comes in bringing a form for me to fill out that is for his elegibility for his wife receiving Medicare, the stipulation was that he could only be making up to $8.00 per hour.

I informed this individual that I would only be paying him $8 per hour until this medicare issue was resolved, and he said fine. Now I must say that I don't speak much Spanish, and his command of English was worse than my Spanish, so the interpretation was surely lost, other than I was implicit he would only earn $8 per hour.

2 months later we wrap up the project and he comes looking for his last check, and upon receiving it is pissed off to no end. He is standing there insisting that I pay him the difference between the $8 and $12, and that I am a *thief* and took advantage of him.

Needless to say you can see how when dealing with this issue up close and personal, it is difficult to get all warm and fuzzy when talking about the immigration issue.

How many other employers would just pay the $12 and not even worry about what is going on with the medicare?

I am thinking this is a much larger problem than most people realize, and it would appear that in these times there are allot of people out there taking advantage of the situation.

A lot of people sit on their white steeds and don't deal with it up close. I am to an extent that way. I was for Bush's proposal and thought the republicans, right wingers, were nuts to fight this issue. I don't see how it can be won.

However, due to one of my sons situtation , I saw it up close and personal and decided I was not so pro-amnesty and not enforcing the law. I saw the hypocricy of the church position while stressing the mighty honor code and at the same time winking and nodding the breaking of a law.

Well, my son shut down his business and it doesn't affect him as much, so I am dutifully back in neutral willing to hear each sides opinion.

[The_Tick]

The economy in Bakersfield would take some time to recover, but it would recover.

We have 12% unemployment right now.

There are 11 kids in my ward that are working age, and none of them have been able to land a job in the last 6 months. My daughter isn't going to work in the field chucking Watermelon's, but I know for a fact that all of the YM would for minimum wage. (I did this for 2 summers in high school.)

So the people would be okay.

[wuapinmon]

There is only so much arable land around. The US is much more efficient in terms work required to farm land as well in terms of yield per acre. Protectionism doesn't do anyone any favors. Unlike tennis shoe and rubber duckie manufacture, you can't just outsource millions and millions of acres of agricultural output simply because it got more expensive to produce food in the US.

No, but you can shutter domestic production and buy up the world commodity production because of our high level of prosperity. We can afford $.50 per lb. rice*.....many countries cannot.

* e.g.

[wuapinmon]

100 Years ago the Gov. wasn't giving free food, health care, housing, etc.... Away to people coming to Amerika, it was in fact a land of opportunity, not a land of freebies there for the taking.

I hired a non english speaking person of mexican descent to work for me a while back, we agreed that I would pay him $12.00 per hour for the work he would do.

2 Weeks later he comes in bringing a form for me to fill out that is for his elegibility for his wife receiving Medicare, the stipulation was that he could only be making up to $8.00 per hour.

I informed this individual that I would only be paying him $8 per hour until this medicare issue was resolved, and he said fine. Now I must say that I don't speak much Spanish, and his command of English was worse than my Spanish, so the interpretation was surely lost, other than I was implicit he would only earn $8 per hour.

2 months later we wrap up the project and he comes looking for his last check, and upon receiving it is pissed off to no end. He is standing there insisting that I pay him the difference between the $8 and $12, and that I am a *thief* and took advantage of him.

Needless to say you can see how when dealing with this issue up close and personal, it is difficult to get all warm and fuzzy when talking about the immigration issue.

How many other employers would just pay the $12 and not even worry about what is going on with the medicare?

I am thinking this is a much larger problem than most people realize, and it would appear that in these times there are allot of people out there taking advantage of the situation.

I would have made him sign a contract. Manipulation such as this is not limited to non-English speakers.

[CJF]

100 Years ago the Gov. wasn't giving free food, health care, housing, etc.... Away to people coming to Amerika, it was in fact a land of opportunity, not a land of freebies there for the taking.

I hired a non english speaking person of mexican descent to work for me a while back, we agreed that I would pay him $12.00 per hour for the work he would do.

2 Weeks later he comes in bringing a form for me to fill out that is for his elegibility for his wife receiving Medicare, the stipulation was that he could only be making up to $8.00 per hour.

I informed this individual that I would only be paying him $8 per hour until this medicare issue was resolved, and he said fine. Now I must say that I don't speak much Spanish, and his command of English was worse than my Spanish, so the interpretation was surely lost, other than I was implicit he would only earn $8 per hour.

2 months later we wrap up the project and he comes looking for his last check, and upon receiving it is pissed off to no end. He is standing there insisting that I pay him the difference between the $8 and $12, and that I am a *thief* and took advantage of him.

Needless to say you can see how when dealing with this issue up close and personal, it is difficult to get all warm and fuzzy when talking about the immigration issue.

How many other employers would just pay the $12 and not even worry about what is going on with the medicare?

I am thinking this is a much larger problem than most people realize, and it would appear that in these times there are allot of people out there taking advantage of the situation.

I deal with a lot of these same issues with my work force in Washington state and they are all natural born citizens. Employees turn down incentives or tank their performance so that they can still qualify for government assisted child care and free health insurance. I deal with this on a very regular basis. I think you're lumping human nature into the immigration debate. People are always going to try to work the system. We built the system and the system is now very broken.

[Drunk Tank]

I have to ask what the economy of Bakersfield would be like if there were no immigrants to work in the fields......how would that labor need be met?

My mom grew up in Tehachapi, CA. Every summer for a job, she and her friends would either get jobs picking in the fields, or in the packing sheds. I know of kids in Fresno who still do this. Farm labor is big money however and I dont think that teens would or could ever replace the immigrant labor in the fields.

My issue is with skilled labor. How many people have been put out of a job, be it construction, plumbing, cement work, etc by un-documented, un-liscensed workers. I know more than a few. They lose bids because they are being undercut. Now, I am not talking commercial construction, but small mom and pop run companies. This isnt just here in CA. I have a good family friend who moved to Utah and started his own cement contracting company. He did great the first year, but when housing started to slow, people started hiring more un-liscensed contractors for their work, because they were cheaper. He has since had to file bankruptcy.

My wife is am immigrant. Her mom came to the United States from Colombia on a Tour Visa in the 70's, leaving her children with their grandmother in Colombia. She stayed illegally, but applied for a work visa. She worked any job she could get, as a maid, nanny, and eventually in the sweat shops in Manhatten. She eventually saved money to put herself through school and learned English. She saved money and opened her own dress shop on Steinway street in Astoria, Queens. She then saved and hired an immigration lawyer and started the process of becoming a Citizen. Once she was granted citizenship, she brought her children from Colombia on student visa's and began the work for them to aquire Citizenship. My eife came to New York when she was 18 and enrolled in NYU to learn English, and was granted her citizenship a few years later.

I am not a big fan of illegal immigration, but I can understand the desire to come here to the US. The system is broke, and I'm not sure if there is a way to fix it. I dont think the answer is to just "open the borders", but I dont have the answer. I do find it ironic that Mexico has some of the most strict immigration laws of any Country, yet they run advertising campaigns about coming to America illegally.

[Tim]

I can only assume our government likes the fact that there are thousands (millions?) of workers willing to do stuff like pick fruit and don't have to be watched out for.

Why else leave the border open? Why else make legally coming here such a pain?

Either it's sheer incompetence or evil. Take your pick.

Or it could be that you're one of the only people that thinks it's actually a problem for someone to be here and get paid a pittance to do jobs that you and I and most other Americans aren't willing to do.

[Indy Coug]

Or it could be that you're one of the only people that thinks it's actually a problem for someone to be here and get paid a pittance to do jobs that you and I and most other Americans aren't willing to do.

Americans would be willing to do them if they weren't paid illegally low wages for them.

[wuapinmon]

Americans would be willing to do them if they weren't paid illegally low wages for them.

Americans would be unwilling to pay higher prices for the things that get by on 'illegally' low wage price mdoels.

[byu71]

Americans would be unwilling to pay higher prices for the things that get by on 'illegally' low wage price mdoels.

I think you should say some Americans. I know people who refuse to have jobs done if they know the company providing the service hire undocumenteds. They do so even knowing they could get the service cheaper.

I know, I know. They do that because they are racists and not because they believe in obeying the law.

[The_Tick]

I will stand by what I said earlier. I have 5 YM that would work in the field for minimum wage tomorrow, but can't.

2 reasons...

1. Migrant workers already have the jobs.

2. They don't speak Spanish. So they can't work in the fields.

I believe that "overall" costs would drop. If you got rid of most of the undocumented work force, I believe a financial strain could be lifted (not that the government would ever cut back on taxes, but in theory) because less money would have to go into services for undocumented people.

Again...it is just a theory.