You are warned, Hallelujah

[wuapinmon]

I am going to say you are smarter than me. But I just don't understand what you wrote here.

My question is...regardless of ethnicity, do you or do you not think that the fact that 22 people were in an SUV was probably the deciding factor in the accident?

Now...I will go back to dragging my knuckles through the oil fields while you wax eloquently in academia.

Whoa, dude.

Do you *really* believe that there's some stored up conflict that exists between us? There *is* no us. *We* don't exist. So who do you wanna hit, man? It's not me.

I'm not trying to create hostility between us....I just said that I think that 22 people were crammed into the car precisely because the conditions at the border force people into these situations. I don't know that 22 people caused the wreck; we don't have any kind of data to support that theory, but we can know that coyotes (people smugglers on the border) will maximize their profits by stuffing as many folks as possible into a vehicle. This is a matter of record.

I AM NOT an ivory tower academe. I don't have soft hands and I know what real work is. That you immediately assume I'm talking down to you by disagreeing with you is the only quarrel I have with you.

[JohnnyLingo]

Coach, how does your empathy for these people affect your opinion on how illegal immigration should be dealt with?

I like your idea, I.J., but unless we manage to effectively close the border, people will just come across illegally and continue to do what they do, because it's easy. With a controlled border, your idea is great.

[wuapinmon]

People like wuapinmon and LA Ute are really just on the side of open borders. Either you're willing to enforce border law or you are not. If you are not willing to do so, then let's change the law and just open them up to everyone and anyone who wants to come in. Give them citizenship and call it a day.

At least openly advocate your stance instead of dancing around by condemning every other attempt at fixing the issue.

I don't dance around anything. I am on record about immigration in multiple threads on this site. In a nutshell, I am in favor of open borders in the Americas, with the entire mega-continent closed to Old World immigration. We had a plan for people to come work here until the Kennedy Administration, and it worked very well. Fixing immigration, even on a lesser scale than my gradiose and improbable scheme, would simply involve making it easier for people to come here to work; that's it. People gnashing their teeth on the bit of "NO AMNESTY" are the rub that prevents anything from happening.

[JohnnyLingo]

I don't dance around anything. I am on record about immigration in multiple threads on this site. In a nutshell, I am in favor of open borders in the Americas, with the entire mega-continent closed to Old World immigration. We had a plan for people to come work here until the Kennedy Administration, and it worked very well. Fixing immigration, even on a lesser scale than my gradiose and improbable scheme, would simply involve making it easier for people to come here to work; that's it. People gnashing their teeth on the bit of "NO AMNESTY" are the rub that prevents anything from happening.

Well there it is. I apologize for accusing you of hiding your view. I think there are many people like you who also believe in open borders for the Americas, but most of them are afraid to espouse their idea openly.

Glenn Beck has a chapter on this in An Inconvenient Book. Essentially he believes there is a large organization covertly working to unite every country in North and South America for business reasons.

He has references for all of it, but I'm not convinced. Have you heard of this?

[byu71]

What about shoplifting to feed your kids?

Yea, that would be all right. Anytime you are in a victimized situation, you can suspend the law. For instance if you need to feed the kids, it is alright to mug you or me to get the much needed money to feed the kids. If you were raised in a poor neighborhood, you have the right to steal from the people in the rich neighborhood, after all they got breaks and privileges you never had.

We are a compassionate people. If the need is bad enough, the laws just don't apply. The laws should only apply to those who have it made.

[I.J. Reilly]

Coach, how does your empathy for these people affect your opinion on how illegal immigration should be dealt with?

I like your idea, I.J., but unless we manage to effectively close the border, people will just come across illegally and continue to do what they do, because it's easy. With a controlled border, your idea is great.

See, there are two sides to this, supply and demand. It is generally characteristic that supply follows demand and not the other way around. If there was no real demand for these laborers, then the supply would effectively be shut off. So, if you aggressively go after those that create the demand (seasonal growing farms, restaurants, construction, et al.), then you can really squeeze out the supply. I realize that there are other things that motivate people to come to this country besides work, but I would have to say those are fewer and further between. Policing the borders is necessary but if you create a strong economic disincentive for the businesses that employ these people, then my guess is that you would shut down a good 95% of illegal immigration (this is, of course, a guess). This would also allow you to redistribute the labor at the border so as to more effectively police other problems at the border (terrorists wanting to come across, drug running, whatever).

[JohnnyLingo]

Policing the borders is necessary but if you create a strong economic disincentive for the businesses that employ these people, then my guess is that you would shut down a good 95% of illegal immigration (this is, of course, a guess). This would also allow you to redistribute the labor at the border so as to more effectively police other problems at the border (terrorists wanting to come across, drug running, whatever).

I agree, but any time INS makes a raid on an employer using illegal workers, some activist group or other makes a stink about it.

Also, what about illegals who use fake ID? Can you punish an employer for unknowingly hiring an illegal immigrant?

[The_Tick]

Whoa, dude.



I'm not trying to create hostility between us....I just said that I think that 22 people were crammed into the car precisely because the conditions at the border force people into these situations. I don't know that 22 people caused the wreck; we don't have any kind of data to support that theory, but we can know that coyotes (people smugglers on the border) will maximize their profits by stuffing as many folks as possible into a vehicle. This is a matter of record.

I AM NOT an ivory tower academe. I don't have soft hands and I know what real work is. That you immediately assume I'm talking down to you by disagreeing with you is the only quarrel I have with you.

Fair enough. I am one of the few on here that will admit I am intellectually in the inferior on this site. Most folks ARE smarter than me when it comes to book smarts in this community. So I do tend to get defensive at times. If that was not your intention I apologize.

I served an English speaking mission in the US. I spent 9 months of that as an ASL Elder. I worked with a "minority" group, but of a different kind.

I live in Bakersfield, California. The hub of illegal immigration. I am not a huge fan. I live in a town that is going to have to cut police/fire/EMT budgets by 20-25% this next fiscal year because of the state of Emergency that California finds itself in.

I am not going to place blame, or Government short sightedness.

I am an idiot sometimes. I bought my house 9 years ago for 120k. 4 years ago some dude was buying houses up in my neighborhood for 350k cash. I turned it down. Stupidest thing I ever did. But...4 years later everyone in my neighborhood is losing their house. Not us.

Most of the houses in my neighborhood though have 2-3 families living in them now. Most of them non-english speaking families from Mexico or farther south. They have broken down vehicles in their driveways and in their yards and in front of their houses. They have people living in tent trailers in their driveways. It isn't a pretty picture. It makes me want to move.

Does that make me shallow? Maybe.

But I live in a county that is going to cut its safety budget by 25%, but has been explicitly instructed not to cut migrant services.

That is shitty, and that is what creates most of the animosity to the illegals and the situation they are in.

I was born White. Not of my chosing, but I am not going to feel guilty becuase of it.

[I.J. Reilly]

I agree, but any time INS makes a raid on an employer using illegal workers, some activist group or other makes a stink about it.

Also, what about illegals who use fake ID? Can you punish an employer for unknowingly hiring an illegal immigrant?

The stink, I think, arises from the patchwork policy that we have put together. If we clearly presented the plan and said, "Look, you've got one year to get your employment practices in line with this new worker policy that we have, or we will shut down your business", Then I think that the message would be clear and people would have the time afforded to get all of their papers in order and become part of the program.

Businesses couldn't groan and moan about it, immigrant worker advocates would have a clearly marked path that they could put all of the people they worked with on, and I could see people being a lot happier about it. We share the opportunity we have by virtue of birth with those that really want it and we do so in a sensible manner.

As far as people persenting false documents, as long as the businesses went about it in the proper manner, with the proper checks, I can't see holding them responsible for it. Now, if they are doing it lazily and cutting corners on their due dilligence then they would be held accountable. The way I envision it, it would be done in partnership with the governments of the other countries to ensure the proper identification checks.

[JohnnyLingo]

The stink, I think, arises from the patchwork policy that we have put together. If we clearly presented the plan and said, "Look, you've got one year to get your employment practices in line with this new worker policy that we have, or we will shut down your business", Then I think that the message would be clear and people would have the time afforded to get all of their papers in order and become part of the program.

Businesses couldn't groan and moan about it, immigrant worker advocates would have a clearly marked path that they could put all of the people they worked with on, and I could see people being a lot happier about it. We share the opportunity we have by virtue of birth with those that really want it and we do so in a sensible manner.

I am with you on this 100%. However, like you said, it requires the United States adopting a clear and comprehensive policy that we are dedicated to following through to the letter.

I don't see that happening.

As far as people persenting false documents, as long as the businesses went about it in the proper manner, with the proper checks, I can't see holding them responsible for it. Now, if they are doing it lazily and cutting corners on their due dilligence then they would be held accountable. The way I envision it, it would be done in partnership with the governments of the other countries to ensure the proper identification checks.

Okay, so isn't it easier for a Mexican to come here, buy a fake ID off the street, and get a job than to go through some government bureaucracy in his own country?

[I.J. Reilly]

Okay, so isn't it easier for a Mexican to come here, buy a fake ID off the street, and get a job than to go through some government bureaucracy in his own country?

I would argue with your premise of the facility of crossing the border. I don't think it's necessarily ever "easy" to just come across. I could be wrong, though, as I have never tried and I am not in a lot of close contact with those that have.

There is a risk/reward thing going on here, and I think that in my system the risks would be lower for doing it the legal route as opposed to going the illegal way. I mean, we would have to try it out and see what sort of response we got from foreign workers wanting to come here and seeing how that supply fit with the demand but I think we could probably match these up pretty closely.

Also, the way I envision it, the offices in the foreign countries would not be run by the foreign governments, but rather their only involvment would be to certify the person is who they say they are. Many of these countries actually have strong, centralized identification databases where everyone is required to register for myriad purposes, unlike the U.S., which has a policy of strong suggestion but works with tied hands because of states-rights issues and privacy advocacy.

[JohnnyLingo]

Also, the way I envision it, the offices in the foreign countries would not be run by the foreign governments, but rather their only involvment would be to certify the person is who they say they are. Many of these countries actually have strong, centralized identification databases where everyone is required to register for myriad purposes, unlike the U.S., which has a policy of strong suggestion but works with tied hands because of states-rights issues and privacy advocacy.

I like it, but requiring Mexico's cooperation is an easy way to fail, IMO. The country is collapsing, and they've shown zero initiative to work with the US on this problem so far.

[Levin]

One of the few things that really bothers me about this great nation is the immigration policies. We make it very difficult for people to come into this country legally. I understand there are serious national security concerns, but there has to be a better way for the protection of human life of those immigrating and the residents of the US. This country was made great buy immigration. We've sure moved away from that legacy.

Talk to the Irish, Poles, Chinese and xx of the 19th century and ask if we've moved away from our legacy. They would say we have changed for the better in dramatic ways. Have you heard of the Know Nothing Party? No, not the Republican Party of the strident Romney candidacy, but go farther back. The hostility and hate was much worse. Heck, go back to California of the early 1990s -- to Pete Wilson -- before the Hispanic vote became indispensable to California politicians.

When the immigrants come from impoverished countries, there is the inevitable resistance and xenophobia, but like night follows day, many get in. They set up lives here, become part of the American fabric, and eventually the resistance to that particular immigrant subsides as the influx reduces to a trickle. And the influx subsides when the economic conditions in the home country improve: see Italy, Ireland, Poland, etc.

Who in America would resist an immigrant from Italy? From Ireland? From Poland?

[Solon]

Yea, that would be all right. Anytime you are in a victimized situation, you can suspend the law. For instance if you need to feed the kids, it is alright to mug you or me to get the much needed money to feed the kids. If you were raised in a poor neighborhood, you have the right to steal from the people in the rich neighborhood, after all they got breaks and privileges you never had.

We are a compassionate people. If the need is bad enough, the laws just don't apply. The laws should only apply to those who have it made.

Now we just need to figure out how we can classify ourselves as victims, '71, then we can go loot. I want a new TV. Are you in?

[LA Ute]

Talk to the Irish, Poles, Chinese and xx of the 19th century and ask if we've moved away from our legacy. They would say we have changed for the better in dramatic ways. Have you heard of the Know Nothing Party? No, not the Republican Party of the strident Romney candidacy, but go farther back. The hostility and hate was much worse. Heck, go back to California of the early 1990s -- to Pete Wilson -- before the Hispanic vote became indispensable to California politicians.

When the immigrants come from impoverished countries, there is the inevitable resistance and xenophobia, but like night follows day, many get in. They set up lives here, become part of the American fabric, and eventually the resistance to that particular immigrant subsides as the influx reduces to a trickle. And the influx subsides when the economic conditions in the home country improve: see Italy, Ireland, Poland, etc.

Who in America would resist an immigrant from Italy? From Ireland? From Poland?

Compared to my conservative brethren I am "soft" on immigration and think we should find a path to citizenship for those already here -- excluding criminals. Something also needs to be added to the process that inflicts a little pain so we are not rewarding the illegal entry. Most proposals include something along those lines.

My concern about Hispanic immigration has to do with assimilation. The pace of Hispanic immigration over the last 20 years is unsustainable if we want to assimilate the immigrants -- which I think is the magic process underlying our "melting pot." American culture is powerful and will assimilate most groups over time, including adopting many of their folkways and this enriching out own. I just worry that we are going to have huge social problems down the road unless we can stem the tide.

A great book on American immigration is Albion's Seed, by David Hackett Fischer. He disagrees with the melting point theory and subscribes more to the idea that waves of immigrants brought "folkways" with them, each engrafting new ways as they came.