You are warned, Hallelujah

[Coach McGuirk]

Lingo, you can't possibly think that the question of illegal immigration is such a binary one, right? Do you honestly think that it is either an open the whole thing up or close the whole thing down type of situation? Black and white, just like that?

Sidenote: TD, I think you went a little far in bringing up Lingo's online yardsale. He's made it pretty clear that that is an issue that cuts pretty deeply (as you know, he dedicated a whole thread to it). Perhaps you could just drop that particular arrow in your quiver and grant him amnesty on that one.

NO AMNESTY!

[JohnnyLingo]

Lingo, you can't possibly think that the question of illegal immigration is such a binary one, right? Do you honestly think that it is either an open the whole thing up or close the whole thing down type of situation? Black and white, just like that?

Until people like LA Ute who cut down every argument for stopping illegal immigration come up with a viable solution they endorse, I'd say it's fair to argue that they prefer no enforcement whatsoever.

Half-assed measures are just as good as doing nothing, IMO. Either we're serious about fixing the issue or we aren't, and I believe as a whole, Americans and their elected representatives are not interested in really fixing it.

[byu71]

Until people like LA Ute who cut down every argument for stopping illegal immigration come up with a viable solution they endorse, I'd say it's fair to argue that they prefer no enforcement whatsoever.

Half-assed measures are just as good as doing nothing, IMO. Either we're serious about fixing the issue or we aren't, and I believe as a whole, Americans and their elected representatives are not interested in really fixing it.

I actually agree with you on this one Lingo. Half-assed measures are not going to solve the problem and I am surprised the church supports such an approach. It is either against the law to come here illegally or it isn't.

What does this teach kids. Shoplifting is really against the law, except when it isn't.

[LA Ute]

People like wuapinmon and LA Ute are really just on the side of open borders. Either you're willing to enforce border law or you are not. If you are not willing to do so, then let's change the law and just open them up to everyone and anyone who wants to come in. Give them citizenship and call it a day.

Be careful about assuming what people think about complex issues. Some very good minds on your side of this issue see much more complexity here than you seem to see. This guy, for example.

[wuapinmon]

well they smell fear... and furthermore, you brought a pocket knife to a rock fight.

It's NOT fear. And if you're going to paraphrase The Untouchables, please get the metaphor right.

[Indy Coug]

Wuap, what was the point of posting this article in the first place? What was particularly newsworthy about this compared to other tragic carwrecks?

[Solon]

Until people like LA Ute who cut down every argument for stopping illegal immigration come up with a viable solution they endorse, I'd say it's fair to argue that they prefer no enforcement whatsoever.

Half-assed measures are just as good as doing nothing, IMO. Either we're serious about fixing the issue or we aren't, and I believe as a whole, Americans and their elected representatives are not interested in really fixing it.

It's probably not as clear-cut as you'd like it to be. Hardly anyone's opposed to immigration per se, it's the manifold problems that come with illegal immigration: bigger burdens on public resources, exploitation of illegals, etc.

In addition, I've long held the belief that one of the key ways to curb illegal immigration to the US is to hold the Mexican government more accountable as a democracy. Mexico is an extremely stratified society, with little that passes for a "middle class," and its underclass has few options south of the border.

I really enjoyed reading Mexifornia by Victor Hanson. It struck me as being pretty moderate and balanced: the guy's conservative (writes for National Review) but almost always votes Democrat. He's a farmer near Fresno, but teaches Classics. He's seen first-hand the benefits and drawbacks of California's huge immigration issues.

FWIW, I kind of like the recent idea of a VAT in California, which would help raise revenues by collecting some form of tax from undocumenteds. I know taxing consumption can unfairly target the poor, but these taxes can be tweaked to play out more fairly (e.g. we don't pay sales tax on food and clothing in PA).

Too bad California would never lower their other taxes to replace the revenute with a VAT, but would instead just add on a new tax.

[Solon]

I actually agree with you on this one Lingo. Half-assed measures are not going to solve the problem and I am surprised the church supports such an approach. It is either against the law to come here illegally or it isn't.

What does this teach kids. Shoplifting is really against the law, except when it isn't.

What about shoplifting to feed your kids?

[I.J. Reilly]

Here is a partial solution that I posted in another thread, but I'll repost here since it didn't get much response there. I know that there are limitations to my idea and it's not quite all-encompassing, but I think it addressess some of the opposing forces that we find in illegal immigration:

I'm in favor of a real broadening of the guest worker program. Agressively go after the business that hire illegals and then open up a much broader path to being a guest worker.

Set up recruiting offices all over parts of Mexico and other countries that can supply cheap labor. Have the citizens apply there, screened there, and possibly even interviewed there by reps of the companies. The companies that are looking for the labor are responsible for the employees' travel to and from the country. There are special bank accounts set up for the workers that prohibit cash from being taken out- only card-based transactions. That way, if they ever try to skip town and go hide out somewhere they are going to have to do it with no money or they will be tracked via the card. Set time restrictions on how long they can be in the country before they have to have a "rest period" back at home. After a certain amount of time spent working in the U.S. they can apply for provisional citizenship at which time they would be allowed to have their immediate family brought in to the states on their dime. After a certain ammount of time after that they can apply for full citizenship. Seems like a win-win to me.

And to address the problem of those that are here already, let them apply for the same program. I think those that are here illegally would probably prefer to have a legal status, all things being equal.

[SeattleUte]

As a rule I vote Republican. But I find there is a large group in the party that is unique in its lack of empathy for human conditions that are less fortunate than their own. You could try to list the moral defects inherent in the right and left wings of American politics, and there would be much disagreement about rights and wrongs and the predicate facts. But the characteristic I'm talking about is clear, and is definitely the ugliest, the worst trait found among members of either major party. Under the right social conditions these people would comprise an American SS. The conservatives I'm talking about tend to be associated with the social conservative, the religious bent in the American right. I'm sure Christianity has net saved lives since its advent. But it's ironic how a particular mutation of it seems to be a hate factory.

The worst thing about the immigration issue is it brings this type of people to the surface. Their discourse is about as impoverished as discussion gets in politics (personally, I think Romney destroyed his candidacy trying to pander to these folks because most Americans and even the majority of Republicans aren't this way). It's also ironic how often you see people who take a hard line against Mexican immigrants have themselves failed to maximize the wonderful opportunities abudant in America, and are themselves using the immigration issue to express a form of personal resentment at their own failures and a philosophy that between them and the poor Mexicans it's a zero sum game. The worst part about the hard line agaisnt immigration side is the people who espouse it. They seem to be filled with hate and can't seem to articulate their position without betraying that feeling.

[Coach McGuirk]

I have not the answer, but we try nothing. We are a nation frozen in complexities. Every problem is too complex to make a move. Leaders are so afraid of a mistake the only option is inaction. In the meantime, the complexities grow...

[The_Tick]

I'm betting against you. 22 people were in the car probably because they were fearful of being caught and coyotes were maximizing profit for smuggling them in.

I am going to say you are smarter than me. But I just don't understand what you wrote here.

My question is...regardless of ethnicity, do you or do you not think that the fact that 22 people were in an SUV was probably the deciding factor in the accident?

Now...I will go back to dragging my knuckles through the oil fields while you wax eloquently in academia.

[JohnnyLingo]

Be careful about assuming what people think about complex issues. Some very good minds on your side of this issue see much more complexity here than you seem to see. This guy, for example.

I read a couple of the reviews for this book. While I agree with his analysis of what the immigration issue is so tough, what solutions, if any, does he offer?

[wuapinmon]

Wuap, what was the point of posting this article in the first place? What was particularly newsworthy about this compared to other tragic carwrecks?

I really just wanted to nip Hallelujah's vitriol in the bud......he's like a duck to water on this stuff.

w ≠ W

[Coach McGuirk]

I remember mentioning this on CG a while back, but if you lack empathy for the struggles of these people, do yourself a favor and watch Wetback: The Undocumented Documentary. A great look into the dangers these people face just to get to the border.

[youtube]v/X3Aw6C52LbQ&hl=en&fs=1&" >[/youtube]