Same-sex marriage coming to Utah

[Jeff Lebowski]

Which one is gay? The dude in the tie? Or is he supposed to be the conservative one?
My gaydar is down, apparently.

Actually, this is proof that your gaydar is in great working order. Turns out they are stock photos of the same dude (a model). Not a twin, and he is gay.

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement...gay_not_a_twin

[Uncle Ted]

Dude. Don't question science.

I have a cousin that I grew up with that I always thought was gay. He got married, had a couple of kids, and then decided he would rather shack up with another guy. Sometimes "becoming gay" takes time, I guess.

[Uncle Ted]

Actually, this is proof that your gaydar is in great working order. Turns out they are stock photos of the same dude (a model). Not a twin, and he is gay.

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement...gay_not_a_twin

For example, identical twins do not have the same fingerprints. And one study found that identical twins are only about 85 percent similar in IQ.

I wonder if gay twin has a higher or lower IQ.

There were a couple identical twins that I worked with that could fool our biometric hand scanner at the door entry. I have always suspected those "high security" devices were overpriced junk.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I have a cousin that I grew up with that I always thought was gay. He got married, had a couple of kids, and then decided he would rather shack up with another guy. Sometimes "becoming gay" takes time, I guess.

Wow. More rock-hard scientific data.

[clackamascoug]

I have a cousin that I grew up with that I always thought was gay. He got married, had a couple of kids, and then decided he would rather shack up with another guy. Sometimes "becoming gay" takes time, I guess.

I have a church friend who is the gayest person I know. If you saw and talked with him after running into him at the store you would be convinced he was, but in reality he's over 60, a father of 4, grandfather to 6, and married for 38 years, and a former Bishop. Very smart, very funny, and very femmy. He once told me my blue shirt made my eyes pop. I'm not even sure what that means. I don't think he could start a fire to save his life, but he sings like a Nightingale. He's also one of the finest men I've ever met, and filled with compassion for his fellow man.

[old_gregg]

filled with compassion for his fellow man.

:condom:

[Blueintheface]

I have a church friend who is the gayest person I know. If you saw and talked with him after running into him at the store you would be convinced he was, but in reality he's over 60, a father of 4, grandfather to 6, and married for 38 years, and a former Bishop. Very smart, very funny, and very femmy. He once told me my blue shirt made my eyes pop. I'm not even sure what that means. I don't think he could start a fire to save his life, but he sings like a Nightingale. He's also one of the finest men I've ever met, and filled with compassion for his fellow man.

You go for the testimony answer a little too quickly IMO. Have fun with it. Make a joke. Then hit us with the fireside stuff.

[Moliere]

We've got a kid in our ward that I'm convinced is gay. Great kid and currently out on a mission. His parents probably wouldn't take the news very well if he came out. Thankfully we haven't had any similar firesides in our stake. I cringe at the way the counselors in the stake presidency would answer some of those questions. It seems at times that they try to out BRM each other. Thankfully our SP is a very reasonable and well grounded man. It probably has helped our SP to have two of his own children go completely inactive after learning out church history.

A couple years ago I had a good discussion on being born gay with many on this board. It was very enlightening for me and, while it didn't change my views toward gays (I thought they deserved equal rights before that discussion) I still struggle with the simplistic term "born gay". To me it refers to something genetic, which I don't think that's been proven. I think Lebowski used the term "innate" which I think is subtly different than "born gay". Anyway, I've gotten to the point that I don't even engage on the subject anymore outside of this board due to the polarity, which polarity I think is mostly caused by the conservative/evangelical wing of our political machine.

[CardiacCoug]

Being gay isn't entirely genetic, that's for sure. It's about 30% genetic, also has something to do with maternal antibodies probably (since it is very clear that for men the more older brothers you have the more likely you are to be gay), probably in utero hormonal environment, other biological and psychological processes that aren't well understood.

Agree that the term innate is a good one. Such a ridiculous straw man to argue that because there is not 100% identical twin concordance for homosexuality that it's just a choice.

[UVACoug]

Actually, this is proof that your gaydar is in great working order. Turns out they are stock photos of the same dude (a model). Not a twin, and he is gay.

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement...gay_not_a_twin

I think the rebuttal this article raises is a little silly. It seems implausible that genetic variation in identical twins explains why one twin may be gay and the other not. I'm not aware of any study that would support that hypothesis. I believe the consensus is that twins studies DO show that homosexuality cannot be explained solely by genetics.

As Cardiac says, it appears that other biological factors come into play, in addition to genetics. There was an interesting WaPo article published earlier this year on recent evidence of the role of genetics:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/postev...y-or-straight/

I think one thing most of us will agree on is that the billboard is idiotic and offensive.

[TripletDaddy]

We've got a kid in our ward that I'm convinced is gay. Great kid and currently out on a mission. His parents probably wouldn't take the news very well if he came out. Thankfully we haven't had any similar firesides in our stake. I cringe at the way the counselors in the stake presidency would answer some of those questions. It seems at times that they try to out BRM each other. Thankfully our SP is a very reasonable and well grounded man. It probably has helped our SP to have two of his own children go completely inactive after learning out church history.

A couple years ago I had a good discussion on being born gay with many on this board. It was very enlightening for me and, while it didn't change my views toward gays (I thought they deserved equal rights before that discussion) I still struggle with the simplistic term "born gay". To me it refers to something genetic, which I don't think that's been proven. I think Lebowski used the term "innate" which I think is subtly different than "born gay". Anyway, I've gotten to the point that I don't even engage on the subject anymore outside of this board due to the polarity, which polarity I think is mostly caused by the conservative/evangelical wing of our political machine.

i haven't really engaged in the choice debate for a long time. Not because of the polarity, but because it is such an anachronism at this point. Outside of religious people, is anyone having a serious conversation about this in an effort to discredit homosexuality as abnormal?

[Solon]

Actually, this is proof that your gaydar is in great working order. Turns out they are stock photos of the same dude (a model). Not a twin, and he is gay.

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement...gay_not_a_twin

Aha! Good find. Thanks.
Dude is South African. No wonder I couldn't get it right.
I think Gaydar sweeps counter-clockwise south of the equator.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Aha! Good find. Thanks.
Dude is South African. No wonder I couldn't get it right.
I think Gaydar sweeps counter-clockwise south of the equator.

[SoonerCoug]

Involvement of maternal antibodies has not been shown--that is speculation.

That the uterine environment matters is beyond doubt. People are indeed born gay. Unfortunately, most people don't have a remotely good enough biology education to understand the basics of environmental-genetic interactions. Gene expression, for example, can be highly dependent on environment. And by environment, I'm not referring to the air in Utah County. It could be factors in the uterus.

[Uncle Ted]

I think the rebuttal this article raises is a little silly. It seems implausible that genetic variation in identical twins explains why one twin may be gay and the other not. I'm not aware of any study that would support that hypothesis. I believe the consensus is that twins studies DO show that homosexuality cannot be explained solely by genetics.

As Cardiac says, it appears that other biological factors come into play, in addition to genetics. There was an interesting WaPo article published earlier this year on recent evidence of the role of genetics:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/postev...y-or-straight/

I think one thing most of us will agree on is that the billboard is idiotic and offensive.

Identical Twins' Genes Are Not Identical


Twins may appear to be cut from the same cloth, but their genes reveal a different pattern

Identical twins are identical, right? After all, they derive from just one fertilized egg, which contains one set of genetic instructions, or genome, formed from combining the chromosomes of mother and father.


But experience shows that identical twins are rarely completely the same. Until recently, any differences between twins had largely been attributed to environmental influences (otherwise known as "nurture"), but a recent study contradicts that belief.


Geneticist Carl Bruder of the University of Alabama at Birmingham, and his colleagues closely compared the genomes of 19 sets of adult identical twins. In some cases, one twin's DNA differed from the other's at various points on their genomes. At these sites of genetic divergence, one bore a different number of copies of the same gene, a genetic state called copy number variants.


Normally people carry two copies of every gene, one inherited from each parent. "There are, however, regions in the genome that deviate from that two-copy rule, and that's where you have copy number variants," Bruder explains. These regions can carry anywhere from zero to over 14 copies of a gene.
[...]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...not-identical/



So maybe copies do sometimes turn out to be a little different...