Same-sex marriage coming to Utah

[Moliere]

I understand what you're saying now. But I don't think you can make the claim that today's 'gay Mormon' world is much different than those of most of the respondents'. I would assume that his population sample covered people of all ages, and those who are both 'recent' gays as well as older people.

I'm pretty sure that UVACoug can make that claim and his point appears to be valid. The shift in the church post Prop-8 is incredible, from top to bottom. Sure many still hold bigoted views, but for the most part people in the church are finally admitting to themselves that being gay isn't a choice.

[Northwestcoug]

I'm pretty sure that UVACoug can make that claim and his point appears to be valid. The shift in the church post Prop-8 is incredible, from top to bottom. Sure many still hold bigoted views, but for the most part people in the church are finally admitting to themselves that being gay isn't a choice.

Now you're misunderstanding me? It certainly can't be me

Of course the climate has improved since prop 8. I'm not arguing that. I was replying to UVACoug's assertion that those who participated in Dehlin's survey had a different experience than those of today. I'm asserting that his survey likely included many younger and well as older Mormon gays. Dehlin's conclusions are probably valid for today's gay Mormon experience, irrespective of the improvements we have seen.

[TripletDaddy]

The shift in the church post Prop-8 is incredible, from top to bottom.

lol. UVA, can you confirm this please?

[UVACoug]

lol. UVA, can you confirm this please?

LOL ... unfortunately, no.

[old_gregg]

LOL ... unfortunately, no.

maybe topper or '71 can help you with further light and knowledge then?

[UVACoug]

Now you're misunderstanding me? It certainly can't be me

Of course the climate has improved since prop 8. I'm not arguing that. I was replying to UVACoug's assertion that those who participated in Dehlin's survey had a different experience than those of today. I'm asserting that his survey likely included many younger and well as older Mormon gays. Dehlin's conclusions are probably valid for today's gay Mormon experience, irrespective of the improvements we have seen.

I guess my point is more that the experiences the people in the study had in the past, whether old or young, are different than the experiences that many gay mormons (especially young gay mormons) are having today and will have in the future. This is most evident in the context of marriage. In the past, many-many gay mormons got into mixed-orientation marriages without (a) admitting to themselves that they were gay and/or (b) telling their spouses that they were gay. This was the result of many factors, including social and religious pressure. As Dehlin's study shows, these marriages were often miserable failures (although some of them did work). Prior to about ten years ago, the Church really didn't entertain the possibility that being sexually attracted to the same sex was involuntary. So, the answer for many gay mormons was to get married and hope you could deal with it. If you didn't get married, there was something wrong with you ... or worse yet, you were sinning by failing to follow the commandment to get married. I'm sure there were many Church leaders that counseled gay men to get married as a "cure" for homosexuality at the time. The Church stopped recommending marriage as a "cure" for gay men about ten years ago (at least officially). The social pressure didn't end though, and many gay men continued to get married believing they could just ignore or repress their sexuality.

I am guessing that 90%+ of the people in mixed-orientation marriages that participated in the Dehlin study fall into this category of getting into a marriage while hiding their sexuality either out of social or religious pressure or a hope that their sexual attraction to men would eventually just go away or dissipate.

Over the last few years, the Church (to its credit) has taken a more proactive stance on same-sex attraction, making clear that it is not a sin and that marriage is not a solution. To be completely honest, I think the Church still has a long way to go in this area and could do a lot more to support gay mormons. But it does deserve some credit for what it has done with the mormonsandgays.org site and some training for local leaders.

The couples on the TLC show are in a new breed of mixed-orientation marriage that hasn't really been done before (which is why I think the Dehlin study is not really helpful with respect to them). The men in these marriages came out to their wives before they were married and the wives had at least some idea of what they were getting into. I would like to hope that these couples can have a happy marriage, but I am a bit skeptical. Most of them are in relatively new marriages that haven't really been tested over a significant amount of time. The one thing that I am most bothered by is that, while many of them nominally acknowledge that marriage isn't an option for all gay people, they do seem to be on somewhat of a mission to convince people that what they are doing is a real option. I'm not sure what other reason they would have to go on a show like this other than to try to promote their lifestyle. Organizations like North Star are kind of in the same boat. They nominally acknowledge that a mixed-orientation marriage isn't a solution for everyone, and do not take an official stance on counseling that encourages mixed-orientation dating and marriage, but most of North Star's leaders are in mixed-orientation marriages and will privately recommend counseling that encourages mixed-orientation dating/marriage and even reparative therapy.

A lot of well-intentioned mormons use this kind of stuff to put pressure on their gay family members and friends. I, myself, have family members that know I am gay and still pressure me to get married, even to the extent of implying that I am sinning by not actively looking for a wife. So, I think there is value in Dehlin's study to the extent it shows the negative impact that getting into a mixed-orientation marriage under pressure can have, or refusing to acknowledge your own sexuality. I happen to fall into the category of gay mormons that happen to be inactive at the moment, so I am not too shocked by his study. I don't know that the study has much predictive value, though, for people who are in the types of marriages that the TLC couples are in. We just don't have enough data.

Personally, I think sexuality is a lot more complex than the handful of labels typically given to it. Its a lot more complex than the Kinsey scale would suggest as well. There isn't just one dimension of "sexual attraction." There are many different dimensions and spectrums. I won't go into more detail about what I think those dimensions are here (probably not appropriate discussion for the general board), but if you want to know my further thoughts no the subject you can PM me. For some people, I think a mixed-orientation marriage can work under the right circumstances. I don't think such a situation should be promoted as a solution or option for most gay mormons though.

I do have to say that I have been pretty disgusted with some of the hateful comments made about the people on the TLC show. I understand (and share some of) the concerns that some in the mainstream gay community have about the message a show like this might send to gay mormons and their family members. The vitriol and personal attacks targeted at these families, who I believe are sincerely trying to do what they think is best for themselves, is not justified though. I don't know any of them personally, but I have met some of them and they appear, at least, to be well adjusted people who did not take their decision to marry lightly.

Sorry for the tome.

[UVACoug]

maybe topper or '71 can help you with further light and knowledge then?

Does '71 have experience in that area?

[old_gregg]

Does '71 have experience in that area?

extenzive

[Uncle Ted]

Over the last few years, the Church (to its credit) has taken a more proactive stance on same-sex attraction, making clear that it is not a sin and that marriage is not a solution. To be completely honest, I think the Church still has a long way to go in this area and could do a lot more to support gay mormons. But it does deserve some credit for what it has done with the mormonsandgays.org site and some training for local leaders.

If marriage to a woman is not a solution then what is the solution for a gay man that wants exaltation according to modern mormon theology? S how can the church be more supportive of gay members? Please consider section 132 and the more recent "A Proclamation to the World" in your answer. It seems to me that gay members are trying to master the end game by eating broccoli to me.

[Northwestcoug]

I guess my point is more that the experiences the people in the study had in the past, whether old or young, are different than the experiences that many gay mormons (especially young gay mormons) are having today and will have in the future. This is most evident in the context of marriage. In the past, many-many gay mormons got into mixed-orientation marriages without (a) admitting to themselves that they were gay and/or (b) telling their spouses that they were gay. This was the result of many factors, including social and religious pressure. As Dehlin's study shows, these marriages were often miserable failures (although some of them did work). Prior to about ten years ago, the Church really didn't entertain the possibility that being sexually attracted to the same sex was involuntary. So, the answer for many gay mormons was to get married and hope you could deal with it. If you didn't get married, there was something wrong with you ... or worse yet, you were sinning by failing to follow the commandment to get married. I'm sure there were many Church leaders that counseled gay men to get married as a "cure" for homosexuality at the time. The Church stopped recommending marriage as a "cure" for gay men about ten years ago (at least officially). The social pressure didn't end though, and many gay men continued to get married believing they could just ignore or repress their sexuality.

I am guessing that 90%+ of the people in mixed-orientation marriages that participated in the Dehlin study fall into this category of getting into a marriage while hiding their sexuality either out of social or religious pressure or a hope that their sexual attraction to men would eventually just go away or dissipate.

Over the last few years, the Church (to its credit) has taken a more proactive stance on same-sex attraction, making clear that it is not a sin and that marriage is not a solution. To be completely honest, I think the Church still has a long way to go in this area and could do a lot more to support gay mormons. But it does deserve some credit for what it has done with the mormonsandgays.org site and some training for local leaders.

The couples on the TLC show are in a new breed of mixed-orientation marriage that hasn't really been done before (which is why I think the Dehlin study is not really helpful with respect to them). The men in these marriages came out to their wives before they were married and the wives had at least some idea of what they were getting into. I would like to hope that these couples can have a happy marriage, but I am a bit skeptical. Most of them are in relatively new marriages that haven't really been tested over a significant amount of time. The one thing that I am most bothered by is that, while many of them nominally acknowledge that marriage isn't an option for all gay people, they do seem to be on somewhat of a mission to convince people that what they are doing is a real option. I'm not sure what other reason they would have to go on a show like this other than to try to promote their lifestyle. Organizations like North Star are kind of in the same boat. They nominally acknowledge that a mixed-orientation marriage isn't a solution for everyone, and do not take an official stance on counseling that encourages mixed-orientation dating and marriage, but most of North Star's leaders are in mixed-orientation marriages and will privately recommend counseling that encourages mixed-orientation dating/marriage and even reparative therapy.

A lot of well-intentioned mormons use this kind of stuff to put pressure on their gay family members and friends. I, myself, have family members that know I am gay and still pressure me to get married, even to the extent of implying that I am sinning by not actively looking for a wife. So, I think there is value in Dehlin's study to the extent it shows the negative impact that getting into a mixed-orientation marriage under pressure can have, or refusing to acknowledge your own sexuality. I happen to fall into the category of gay mormons that happen to be inactive at the moment, so I am not too shocked by his study. I don't know that the study has much predictive value, though, for people who are in the types of marriages that the TLC couples are in. We just don't have enough data.

Personally, I think sexuality is a lot more complex than the handful of labels typically given to it. Its a lot more complex than the Kinsey scale would suggest as well. There isn't just one dimension of "sexual attraction." There are many different dimensions and spectrums. I won't go into more detail about what I think those dimensions are here (probably not appropriate discussion for the general board), but if you want to know my further thoughts no the subject you can PM me. For some people, I think a mixed-orientation marriage can work under the right circumstances. I don't think such a situation should be promoted as a solution or option for most gay mormons though.

I do have to say that I have been pretty disgusted with some of the hateful comments made about the people on the TLC show. I understand (and share some of) the concerns that some in the mainstream gay community have about the message a show like this might send to gay mormons and their family members. The vitriol and personal attacks targeted at these families, who I believe are sincerely trying to do what they think is best for themselves, is not justified though. I don't know any of them personally, but I have met some of them and they appear, at least, to be well adjusted people who did not take their decision to marry lightly.

Sorry for the tome.

I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I essentially agree with what you have said. I think it's a very complex issue, which the two most polarized sides try to frame too simply. Despite his reputation as an attention-seeker, I think everyone interested in this should be grateful for Dehlin's research. Not only for the basic information that not too many people had a handle on previously (and that the church probably doesn't want publicized), but for the future research that will come from it.

[UVACoug]

I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I essentially agree with what you have said. I think it's a very complex issue, which the two most polarized sides try to frame too simply. Despite his reputation as an attention-seeker, I think everyone interested in this should be grateful for Dehlin's research. Not only for the basic information that not too many people had a handle on previously (and that the church probably doesn't want publicized), but for the future research that will come from it.

I agree completely. I'm not a big Dehlin fan (and he shouldn't be getting all the credit for the study, or even most of the credit), but the study is more good than bad in my opinion. I just don't think it should be used to predict the failure of these couple's marriage (as Dehlin implies on his blog post), or be used as a tool to bash them.

[Northwestcoug]

I agree completely. I'm not a big Dehlin fan (and he shouldn't be getting all the credit for the study, or even most of the credit), but the study is more good than bad in my opinion. I just don't think it should be used to predict the failure of these couple's marriage (as Dehlin implies on his blog post), or be used as a tool to bash them.

That's absolutely true. But he has done a good job at publicizing it. I'd give a ton of credit to his colleague Dr. Bradshaw, who was brave enough to highlight this issue back in the 90's.

[Uncle Ted]

I guess they get tired of not eating donuts?

If a gay Mormon marries a woman, divorce is likely, study finds

[...]
The study found that:


• Between 51 percent and 69 percent of mixed-orientation Mormon marriages end in divorce, well above the roughly 25 percent of LDS couples who split up.


• More than 70 percent of LGBT/same-sex attracted Mormons leave the LDS Church.


• 80 percent of respondents reported undergoing efforts to change their sexual orientation — 85 percent of which were religious and private efforts, 31 percent were private efforts only, 40 percent therapist-led and 21 percent group efforts.


• 53 percent rejected their religious identity; 37 percent compartmentalized their sexual and religious identities; 6 percent rejected their LGBT identity; 4 percent integrated the two.
[...]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/lds/20505...s-a?fullpage=1

[Moliere]

Eric Snider (whose articles I still enjoy reading) is gay. I didn't know.

http://www.ericdsnider.com/snide/love-and-sects/

[Pelado]

Eric Snider (whose articles I still enjoy reading) is gay. I didn't know.

http://www.ericdsnider.com/snide/love-and-sects/

I was unaware.

People to whom such distinctions mattered needed a way to differentiate between “practicing” homosexuals and people who have homosexual feelings but don’t act on them. “College a cappella club” was already taken, so they settled on “same-sex attraction.”