The 2016 Presidential Election Trainwreck

[Bo Diddley]

Voldemort killed a lot of people. But of course, he's a fictional character so he didn't really kill anyone. Maybe that's what she's saying

You didn't see the movies? He did kill people, and there's video-graphic evidence to prove it.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

So how to explain it? Why does Trump remain popular in the polls? Are there just that many idiots or is something else happening here? I can only conclude that he is popular as a symbol for people who are sick and tired of being dismissed as irrelevant and patronized by politicians. They may not even like what he says, or at least not all of it, but they like that he just keeps sticking his thumb in the eye of the establishment. In other words, it isnt that Trump is so popular, its that he is NOT the establishment, republican or democrat.

Here is a possible example of the problem: some guy named Farook shoots the crap out of a disability center and is known as a hater of Israel and supporter of ISIS and the president says he doesn’t know if it is terrorism or not. Obama thinks he is being presidential, but almost everybody thinks this is terrorism and they feel very frustrated by the government's attitude. Then Trump says what everybody is thinking, which is that of course it is terrorism! So many, many people feel like the government is patronizing them and might even be up to something to go so far to deny the very clearly obvious. But Trump says what we all know and people love that, and support it, even if they think he is a clown. I still beleive that when people walk into the booth, a lot of his support will evaporate.

The upshot of all this is that Trump will likely end up doing nothing except clearing the path for Hillary. It is all a bit depressing.

It ticks people off when a false equivalence is drawn, for instance, that the western world doesn't have clean hands because of the crusades. Obama mentioned that a while back.

It's also strange that the one biblethumping baker that won't make a wedding cake for a lesbian wedding is litigated into bankruptcy, yet some of the same people view themselves as protectors of Islam's honor despite how categorically horrible Islamic countries treat their women and homosexuals.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It ticks people off when a false equivalence is drawn, for instance, that the western world doesn't have clean hands because of the crusades. Obama mentioned that a while back.

It's also strange that the one biblethumping baker that won't make a wedding cake for a lesbian wedding is litigated into bankruptcy, yet some of the same people view themselves as protectors of Islam's honor despite how categorically horrible Islamic countries treat their women and homosexuals.

What a load of crap.

[Jeff Lebowski]

This is good, mainly for the introduction.

http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/12/0...-stupid-stuff/

I get that we are at war. But it is not the war that most Americans imagine themselves to be fighting. It is a war of ideas between the values of the Enlightenment and the extremist ideology of fundamentalist Islam. The billion and a half non-terrorist Muslims in the world are not the enemy; they are the battleground. Almost everything that groups like ISIS and Boko Harem do is designed to radicalize Muslims by making them believe that the rest of the wold has nothing to offer them. And so far, almost everything that America and Western Europe have done in response has had the effect of helping them. A lot.

Extremists do not recruit other extremists by showing them how great extremism is. They recruit by provoking Western nations to do stupid things like trying to ban Islam or turning homeless refugees away from their shores. When we do such things–when we declare Muslims exempt from values like tolerance and religious freedom–we end up conceding the only serious point that the terrorists want to make, which is that Islam is incompatible with the Enlightenment. As it turns out, completely conceding the enemy’s point is how one loses a war of ideas.

[creekster]

This is good, mainly for the introduction.

http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/12/0...-stupid-stuff/

I agree (and, as it turns out, I have read two of the five books he recommends), it is good. But I also disagree. We are not in a war of ideas. The ideas and ideals of the enlightenment won, many years ago. The militants are not proposing new or different ideas, they seek to retrench from ideas that have already had great purchase even in the islamic world. The conflict into which we are thrust is real (ask the victims of the San Bernardino shooting if it is just a war of ideas) and involves more than competing thoughts. It involves the implementation of ideas and ideals and imposition of control structures. That said, the general idea of the article is good, IMO, and I agree. But reading the Arabian Nights to try to understand how to defeat ISIS or Al Qaeda is like reading Chaucer to try to understand how to defeat America or the UK. It is an interesting cultural insight, but it is of limited value on the street.

[Moliere]

It ticks people off when a false equivalence is drawn, for instance, that the western world doesn't have clean hands because of the crusades. Obama mentioned that a while back.

It's also strange that the one biblethumping baker that won't make a wedding cake for a lesbian wedding is litigated into bankruptcy, yet some of the same people view themselves as protectors of Islam's honor despite how categorically horrible Islamic countries treat their women and homosexuals.

I've said it before, but I still like Bill mahers take on Islam. while I understand the lefts support of Islam (or their support of freedom of religion) it baffles me that they dont categorically denounce many of the tenets of Islam, which is certainly homophobic, patriarchal (not in a benevolent way), and anti-intellectual.

They should be allowed to believe as they wish but there is definitely some modernizing and tweaking of their doctrine for them to be fully accepted into America...same as us Mormons and our abandoning of polygamy and racist doctrines.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I agree (and, as it turns out, I have read two of the five books he recommends), it is good. But I also disagree. We are not in a war of ideas. The ideas and ideals of the enlightenment won, many years ago. The militants are not proposing new or different ideas, they seek to retrench from ideas that have already had great purchase even in the islamic world. The conflict into which we are thrust is real (ask the victims of the San Bernardino shooting if it is just a war of ideas) and involves more than competing thoughts. It involves the implementation of ideas and ideals and imposition of control structures. That said, the general idea of the article is good, IMO, and I agree. But reading the Arabian Nights to try to understand how to defeat ISIS or Al Qaeda is like reading Chaucer to try to understand how to defeat America or the UK. It is an interesting cultural insight, but it is of limited value on the street.

Forget the book list. The main point is that idiots like Trump are doing the heavy lifting for the radicals.

[creekster]

Forget the book list. The main point is that idiots like Trump are doing the heavy lifting for the radicals.

To a large degree that is true.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

What a load of crap.

So apparently you agree with harassing wedding bakers and photographers into bankruptcy. Got it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

So apparently you agree with harassing wedding bakers and photographers into bankruptcy. Got it.

More crap.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I've said it before, but I still like Bill mahers take on Islam. while I understand the lefts support of Islam (or their support of freedom of religion) it baffles me that they dont categorically denounce many of the tenets of Islam, which is certainly homophobic, patriarchal (not in a benevolent way), and anti-intellectual.

They should be allowed to believe as they wish but there is definitely some modernizing and tweaking of their doctrine for them to be fully accepted into America...same as us Mormons and our abandoning of polygamy and racist doctrines.

Bill Maher is consistent on this point and he recognizes the false equivalency which JL apparently does not.

That's not to say I agree with Donald Trump, far from it. By and large the small Muslim majority in this country have been excellent additions to the US.

But I'm just citing why Trump finds support. Pentecostals who don't care to cater a lesbian wedding are driven to skidrow, and then everyone is lectured to about having to accept Syrian refugees two days after the Paris shooting even when 70% of the country is against it.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Forget the book list. The main point is that idiots like Trump are doing the heavy lifting for the radicals.

Speaking of bullshit. Do you really believe this? You mean after years of indoctrination in radical mosques, propaganda, etc Donald Trump is going to produce all these radicals?

That's idiotic.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Speaking of bullshit. Do you really believe this? You mean after years of indoctrination in radical mosques, propaganda, etc Donald Trump is going to produce all these radicals?

That's idiotic.

No that's not how I would describe it.

[creekster]

Speaking of bullshit. Do you really believe this? You mean after years of indoctrination in radical mosques, propaganda, etc Donald Trump is going to produce all these radicals?

That's idiotic.

That's not what he is saying, as you know. And it goes farther than trump. But xenophobia does help the radicals recruit. Now if JL thinks that Trump and policies related to those ideas Trump promotes are the sole or even the primary cause for the existence of Islamic violence, then I think he is wrong (but I don't think that is what he means, the imprecision of the phrase 'heavy lifting' notwithstanding). The truth, as usual, is in the middle. We can't simply cast this as a war of ideas, tell the world that we love islam and then close our eyes and hope it goes away. Instead we have to face the fact that there are real people with real weapons and real malice who are actively trying to kill us. Our policies have to reflect and respond to this reality. At the same time, it is foolish to shoot first and last and never seek to promote the ideas that made us great in the first place. And those ideas do not have room for the sort of exclusion that Trump has most recently suggested.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Bill Maher is consistent on this point and he recognizes the false equivalency which JL apparently does not.

That's not to say I agree with Donald Trump, far from it. By and large the small Muslim majority in this country have been excellent additions to the US.

But I'm just citing why Trump finds support. Pentecostals who don't care to cater a lesbian wedding are driven to skidrow, and then everyone is lectured to about having to accept Syrian refugees two days after the Paris shooting even when 70% of the country is against it.

It's funny how you condemn false equivalency and then embrace it in the same breath.