The 2016 Presidential Election Trainwreck

[Topper]

But the votes in aggregate mean EVERYTHING. Therefore every vote is significant.

Bs. The monies contributed to lobbyist are what matters. The flow of revenue directs policy.

[imanihonjin]

I disagree. Your vote can have great value. However, even choosing to vote or not is an act of democracy or freedom, not compulsion.

Again, to call it non participating is the intellectual's way of talking down to someone. I get to call or define something and then talk down to you if you don't conform to my world.

Don't get me wrong. These folks can be extremely nice and often have very good opinions. Just not as often as they think they do.

Sorry, your vote has an almost infinitesimally small value. It isn't nothing, but it is close to nothing.

[imanihonjin]

Yes, becoming involved and educated is great. Declining to vote because of mathematical analysis of the impact of one vote = stupid & lazy.

Voting despite the mathematical analysis of the impact of one vote is simply stupid.

[imanihonjin]

Bloody hell. I give up.

Sorry it is difficult to grasp. If millions are voting, your vote means almost nothing. If nobody votes, your vote means everything. The closer you are to the latter situation the more valuable your vote.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Sorry it is difficult to grasp. If millions are voting, your vote means almost nothing. If nobody votes, your vote means everything. The closer you are to the latter situation the more valuable your vote.

Let me try another angle. Voting in aggregate is absolutely essential to a functioning democracy. Our constitution and democracy have a huge impact on your quality of life. Massive amounts of blood and treasure have been expended to establish and preserve your right to vote. Voting is therefore a civic duty.

Suppose you are in a long line and one person butts in in front of you. That person may be thinking, "What does it hurt? It has only a minor impact on the length of the line." Or suppose you are at a beautiful public garden and one person reaches down and picks one of the flowers. You confront the person and he/she responds, "Who cares? It is only one flower". Yes, in both cases the impact is minimal. But in both cases the people in question are behaving as assholes. They are counting on the virtue of everyone else to compensate for their selfishness and laziness. Choosing not to vote due to a mathematical analysis is the very same thing.

[byu71]

the level of dumb in this thread is really inspiring

I agree with you, but still I don't think you are equipped to participate in it.

[imanihonjin]

Let me try another angle. Voting in aggregate is absolutely essential to a functioning democracy. Our constitution and democracy have a huge impact on your quality of life. Massive amounts of blood and treasure have been expended to establish and preserve your right to vote. Voting is therefore a civic duty.

Suppose you are in a long line and one person butts in in front of you. That person may be thinking, "What does it hurt? It has only a minor impact on the length of the line." Or suppose you are at a beautiful public garden and one person reaches down and picks one of the flowers. You confront the person and he/she responds, "Who cares? It is only one flower". Yes, in both cases the impact is minimal. But in both cases the people in question are behaving as assholes. They are counting on the virtue of everyone else to compensate for their selfishness and laziness. Choosing not to vote due to a mathematical analysis is the very same thing.

No they aren't the very same thing. In both of those circumstances someone is doing something that directly has a negative impact on others not to mention the impact of someone picking one flower in a garden or one person butting in a long line has a far greater impact on one's daily life than that person's one vote has value. How does my not voting have a negative impact on anyone else? Voting is a civic duty.....that is what I find funny about voting fanatics....they resort vote shaming.

Sorry but wasting your time to fulfill your civic duty is really illogical. It doesn't benefit you in any other way other than simply feeling good about yourself that you fulfilled some "civic duty" that came from who knows where. Your vote has never changed an election, nor has it had any impact whatsoever on policy or legislation. If it makes you feel good and that benefit outweighs the cost, then by all means have at it. Many others have come to a differing view that its costs, minimal as they may be (having to wait in line etc) do not outweigh the benefits (sorry voting doesn't make me feel good when I know it makes no difference).

[TripletDaddy]

Suppose you are in a long line and one person butts in in front of you. That person may be thinking, "What does it hurt? It has only a minor impact on the length of the line." Or suppose you are at a beautiful public garden and one person reaches down and picks one of the flowers. You confront the person and he/she responds, "Who cares? It is only one flower". Yes, in both cases the impact is minimal. But in both cases the people in question are behaving as assholes. They are counting on the virtue of everyone else to compensate for their selfishness and laziness. Choosing not to vote due to a mathematical analysis is the very same thing.

these anecdotes remind me of falafel in the Costco thread. what a huge PR nightmare that was for him.

[Uncle Ted]

Let me try another angle. Voting in aggregate is absolutely essential to a functioning democracy. Our constitution and democracy have a huge impact on your quality of life. Massive amounts of blood and treasure have been expended to establish and preserve your right to vote. Voting is therefore a civic duty.

Suppose you are in a long line and one person butts in in front of you. That person may be thinking, "What does it hurt? It has only a minor impact on the length of the line." Or suppose you are at a beautiful public garden and one person reaches down and picks one of the flowers. You confront the person and he/she responds, "Who cares? It is only one flower". Yes, in both cases the impact is minimal. But in both cases the people in question are behaving as assholes. They are counting on the virtue of everyone else to compensate for their selfishness and laziness. Choosing not to vote due to a mathematical analysis is the very same thing.

Hmm.... maybe someday when all the republicans and democrats (aka. assholes) get to the point where they expect me to compensate for their selfishness and laziness then a Libertarian will be president.

[beefytee]

Whether you vote or not changes nothing, especially in Utah.

I'm pretty sure my vote was the difference in the Jim Matheson/Mia Love race.

[ERCougar]

Bs. The monies contributed to lobbyist are what matters. The flow of revenue directs policy.

How?

[byu71]

Sorry it is difficult to grasp. If millions are voting, your vote means almost nothing. If nobody votes, your vote means everything. The closer you are to the latter situation the more valuable your vote.

It isn't comfortable for me to comment in favor of JL, but his invalid point is not whether your vote counts or not or if it makes a big difference.

His point is that if you don't vote you aren't participating in democracy.

Now, I am not at his intellectual level, so this is a guess on my part that he isn't talking about whether your vote will be meaningful in the outcome.

[YOhio]

Let me try another angle. Voting in aggregate is absolutely essential to a functioning democracy. Our constitution and democracy have a huge impact on your quality of life. Massive amounts of blood and treasure have been expended to establish and preserve your right to vote. Voting is therefore a civic duty.

Suppose you are in a long line and one person butts in in front of you. That person may be thinking, "What does it hurt? It has only a minor impact on the length of the line." Or suppose you are at a beautiful public garden and one person reaches down and picks one of the flowers. You confront the person and he/she responds, "Who cares? It is only one flower". Yes, in both cases the impact is minimal. But in both cases the people in question are behaving as assholes. They are counting on the virtue of everyone else to compensate for their selfishness and laziness. Choosing not to vote due to a mathematical analysis is the very same thing.

I'm with you unless it's Democrats who don't vote. I'm cool with them shirking their civic duty.

[Topper]

Yes, becoming involved and educated is great. Declining to vote because of mathematical analysis of the impact of one vote = stupid & lazy.

The denigration of those who choose not to vote, when an informed voter merely votes but does not participate at a higher level, is ludicrous. Neither are doing much, and a logical person could decide, it is better for me to devote myself to my profession and to my community than informing myself enough to vote but nothing else.

[Jeff Lebowski]

No they aren't the very same thing. In both of those circumstances someone is doing something that directly has a negative impact on others not to mention the impact of someone picking one flower in a garden or one person butting in a long line has a far greater impact on one's daily life than that person's one vote has value. How does my not voting have a negative impact on anyone else? Voting is a civic duty.....that is what I find funny about voting fanatics....they resort vote shaming.

Sorry but wasting your time to fulfill your civic duty is really illogical. It doesn't benefit you in any other way other than simply feeling good about yourself that you fulfilled some "civic duty" that came from who knows where. Your vote has never changed an election, nor has it had any impact whatsoever on policy or legislation. If it makes you feel good and that benefit outweighs the cost, then by all means have at it. Many others have come to a differing view that its costs, minimal as they may be (having to wait in line etc) do not outweigh the benefits (sorry voting doesn't make me feel good when I know it makes no difference).

You are nitpicking in an attempt to evade simple logic. Let's try another example. Suppose you are in a POW camp and someone finds a sympathetic guard who says that if the prisoners can collectively stockpile a supply of food rations and smuggle it to him, he will help you all escape. You all get together and decide to give it a try. Since the rations are already low, you agree that this will be a tough sacrifice, but everyone agrees to do go on half rations until the stockpile is complete. Except you, of course. You decide that you are going to only pretend to contribute your rations because in the long run, what difference will your input make? One or two days? You would rather eat more and not suffer and make everyone else do it. Freeloading.

Using a mathematical/statistical analysis to determine whether or not to vote makes perfect sense if what you are trying to optimize is how much free time you can have to sit in front of the TV or whatever. If pure self interest is your number one goal, you are right. But (as you have already agreed) if everyone took this route, democracy would cease to function. So what you are really saying is, "I am too lazy to be bothered by this so I am going to sit on my ass and reap the benefits of democracy by leeching off the efforts of everyone else that votes."