The 2016 Presidential Election Trainwreck

[Jeff Lebowski]

The denigration of those who choose not to vote, when an informed voter merely votes but does not participate at a higher level, is ludicrous. Neither are doing much, and a logical person could decide, it is better for me to devote myself to my profession and to my community than informing myself enough to vote but nothing else.

You know what is really ludicrous? Your response in this discussion. We are debating voting/not voting. You seemed to have recognized early on that you were on weak ground, so you tried to build this silly straw man of someone who actively participates at a high level in campaigning, legislations, donations, etc but does not vote, vs. someone who votes but does nothing else. I can guarantee you that the more engaged someone is in civic affairs, the more likely they are to vote.

Of course those other things are beneficial. But we are discussing voting/not voting. Even if you did all those other things, if you do not vote, you are leeching off the efforts or your fellow voters.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Hmm.... maybe someday when all the republicans and democrats (aka. assholes) get to the point where they expect me to compensate for their selfishness and laziness then a Libertarian will be president.

Only if enough people vote that way!

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I don't want to make enemies with our fearless leader, I don't vote anymore. Nor do I plan to start.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't want to make enemies with our fearless leader, I don't vote anymore. Nor do I plan to start.

A freeloader from Oregon?

[Topper]

You know what is really ludicrous? Your response in this discussion. We are debating voting/not voting. You seemed to have recognized early on that you were on weak ground, so you tried to build this silly straw man of someone who actively participates at a high level in campaigning, legislations, donations, etc but does not vote, vs. someone who votes but does nothing else. I can guarantee you that the more engaged someone is in civic affairs, the more likely they are to vote.

Of course those other things are beneficial. But we are discussing voting/not voting. Even if you did all those other things, if you do not vote, you are leeching off the efforts or your fellow voters.

Bullcrap.

The actual act of voting is virtually meaningless in light of millions of others. It's what you do to curry favor with legislators and to promote or oppose legislation that actually impacts. I'm not a fan of not-voting, but I don't describe not-voting as a form of leeching. I don't see it that important if all you do is vote and then abandon the legislative process.

If you a legislator, then your vote may actually matter. However, you will note that some legislators refrain from voting on matters where their vote does not sway the overall vote. This is both tactical and strategic.

You state those other activities are also beneficial. Well, in reality, they are more beneficial and more important than the mere act of casting a single vote.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

A freeloader from Oregon?

I thought us freeloaders didn't have to pay taxes? I'm going to fire my accountant before I write this quarterly check.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Bullcrap.

The actual act of voting is virtually meaningless in light of millions of others. It's what you do to curry favor with legislators and to promote or oppose legislation that actually impacts. I'm not a fan of not-voting, but I don't describe not-voting as a form of leeching. I don't see it that important if all you do is vote and then abandon the legislative process.

If you a legislator, then your vote may actually matter. However, you will note that some legislators refrain from voting on matters where their vote does not sway the overall vote. This is both tactical and strategic.

You state those other activities are also beneficial. Well, in reality, they are more beneficial and more important than the mere act of casting a single vote.

It absolutely is a form of leeching. You are relying on everyone else getting off their butt and voting in order for the system to work. There is no way around that simple logic.

Does democracy rely on a significant bloc of the public to vote in order to work? Yes. Is that critical to the success of democracy? Yes. You agree with that but you are too lazy to do your part.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I thought us freeloaders didn't have to pay taxes? I'm going to fire my accountant before I write this quarterly check.

Hey, if you don't give a shit how your money is spent, can you send some to me? I will PM you my mailing address. TIA!!!

[YOhio]

Hey, if you don't give a shit how your money is spent, can you send some to me? I will PM you my mailing address. TIA!!!

He'll send you Oregon gear with receipts and it will be on you to take it back for cash.

[Topper]

It absolutely is a form of leeching. You are relying on everyone else getting off their butt and voting in order for the system to work. There is no way around that simple logic.

Does democracy rely on a significant bloc of the public to vote in order to work? Yes. Is that critical to the success of democracy? Yes. You agree with that but you are too lazy to do your part.

Huh? I vote. Sometimes I do much more than vote.

I actually want a significant portion of the ignorant masses to NOT vote. If I could get the entirety of the Democratic Party base to stop voting, I would be just fine with that. I don't like how Clark County Democrats mysteriously over-vote based upon the directions of the unions in Vegas.

[Uncle Ted]

You know what is really ludicrous? Your response in this discussion. We are debating voting/not voting. You seemed to have recognized early on that you were on weak ground, so you tried to build this silly straw man of someone who actively participates at a high level in campaigning, legislations, donations, etc but does not vote, vs. someone who votes but does nothing else. I can guarantee you that the more engaged someone is in civic affairs, the more likely they are to vote.

Of course those other things are beneficial. But we are discussing voting/not voting. Even if you did all those other things, if you do not vote, you are leeching off the efforts or your fellow voters.

No worries... if Topper doesn't vote then the good folks at organizations like Acorn/Organizing for America/BGTX or whatever they go by today will send in a ballot for him. That is what they are doing for the folks here in Texas:

https://www.projectveritas.com

BTW, I just love those Wendy Davis bumper stickers:

WindyDavisNotForCripples.jpg

I might just have to break my trend of voting for the libertarian with this election.

[imanihonjin]

You are nitpicking in an attempt to evade simple logic. Let's try another example. Suppose you are in a POW camp and someone finds a sympathetic guard who says that if the prisoners can collectively stockpile a supply of food rations and smuggle it to him, he will help you all escape. You all get together and decide to give it a try. Since the rations are already low, you agree that this will be a tough sacrifice, but everyone agrees to do go on half rations until the stockpile is complete. Except you, of course. You decide that you are going to only pretend to contribute your rations because in the long run, what difference will your input make? One or two days? You would rather eat more and not suffer and make everyone else do it. Freeloading.

Using a mathematical/statistical analysis to determine whether or not to vote makes perfect sense if what you are trying to optimize is how much free time you can have to sit in front of the TV or whatever. If pure self interest is your number one goal, you are right. But (as you have already agreed) if everyone took this route, democracy would cease to function. So what you are really saying is, "I am too lazy to be bothered by this so I am going to sit on my ass and reap the benefits of democracy by leeching off the efforts of everyone else that votes."

No your analogy still does not relate. You can call it nitpicking or whatever you want but it doesn't relate. In your example my actions negatively impact others. My not voting has no negative externalities. What I am really saying is what I have already said. The costs associated with voting, do not outweigh the benefits at this point in time. If everyone took this route, democracy would not cease to function because as the number of people that opted to vote decreased, self interested individuals like me would get back in the game realizing that my vote actually mattered.

What benefits of democracy are actually dependent on voter turnout that I am depriving society of? Minimize the costs of voting or raise the benefits of voting and I would happily be back in the game. Vote shaming me or calling me a freeloader doesn't really move me to do something that doesn't benefit me or society one iota.

[San Juan Sun]

I'm not planning on voting. It could be that I'm lazy, could be that I'm holding out for better offers.

[Jeff Lebowski]

No your analogy still does not relate. You can call it nitpicking or whatever you want but it doesn't relate. In your example my actions negatively impact others. My not voting has no negative externalities.

Wrong. Every person that does not vote has a negative impact on the process. Democracy works best when everyone is informed and participating. It is a continuum, not a black and white switch.

What I am really saying is what I have already said. The costs associated with voting, do not outweigh the benefits at this point in time. If everyone took this route, democracy would not cease to function because as the number of people that opted to vote decreased, self interested individuals like me would get back in the game realizing that my vote actually mattered.

What benefits of democracy are actually dependent on voter turnout that I am depriving society of? Minimize the costs of voting or raise the benefits of voting and I would happily be back in the game. Vote shaming me or calling me a freeloader doesn't really move me to do something that doesn't benefit me or society one iota.

Again, your "back in the game" logic implies that there is some magical switch that is flipped where you go from smart-and-efficient-non-voter to fulfilling-my-civic-duty. Nonsense. It is a continuum. Your logic is based purely on self interest and laziness.

[Topper]

Wrong. Every person that does not vote has a negative impact on the process. Democracy works best when everyone is informed and participating. It is a continuum, not a black and white switch.



Again, your "back in the game" logic implies that there is some magical switch that is flipped where you go from smart-and-efficient-non-voter to fulfilling-my-civic-duty. Nonsense. It is a continuum. Your logic is based purely on self interest and laziness.

First, we're a federated republic. But everybody informed? What pipe of crack are you smoking?