Obama with Brown this morning

[RobinFinderson]

Freedom means to any and all that they can do as they wish. A kid in a ghetto is free to work himself out of that situation if he's willing to do it.

A lot of kids in the ghetto see their lives as a long series of tough choices between bad and worse. To be truly free a person needs some good choices. The problem is, these kids don't know what a good choice looks like.

[wuapinmon]

Meh, it really isn't that complicated. Here is something for you to spend a little time thinking about.

I will tell you the reason you are unhappy with capitalism and freedom. You covet the success (material or otherwise) of other people while simultaneously loathing them for their drive and ambition. Herein lies the hypocrisy of destroyers.

Honestly Robin, I find your posts in this thread to be even more nauseating than your previous threads on female discharge and farting. However, I do derive some small benefit from these posts of yours. They serve as a reminder to me that there are real enemies to the morals and values I hold most dear.

But you don't get it Colly Wolly......you grew up privileged, whether you'll admit it or not. There are whole GENERATIONS of kids who don't understand that they can succeed. Their families tell them they can't. Society tells them they can't. Security guards follow them around stores because of the color of their skin. They don't get a good job over someone else from a different class. They can't network the way wealthier, or even middle class folks can. They don't have access to private transportation. My Boy Scout troop in New Orleans had no plans to go to college because they all thought that they couldn't get in or pay for it.....nor did they see the value in doing so or know anyone from their own sub-culture who had.

Calling Robin a "real enemy" to your "values" is fucking narrow-minded. You are a poor conservative. People like William Buckley at least knew all sides to an issue when they spoke......that's why he was able to bring conservatism back from near-extinction.....he was bright, articulate, educated, and compassionate. He tried to understand the position of the Other, and he didn't despise them for their beliefs....rather, he wanted to help them via policies that he believed would work and be prudent at the same time. He also admitted when he made mistakes (e.g. supporting Segregation) and worked to correct those mistakes by positive action.

Robin isn't jealous of other people's success. Come off it already. I don't agree with Robin on this, but to say that he loathes other people and that he is a destroyer is rude, incurious, wrong-headed, and asinine.

There can be no dialogue with someone who supposes that the other person is "evil" just because they'd like to try a different way other than capitalism. Get over yourself.

[wuapinmon]

Freedom means to any and all that they can do as they wish. A kid in a ghetto is free to work himself out of that situation if he's willing to do it.

It has been my experience that a kid in the ghetto doesn't understand that he can work himself out of that situation. I tried....believe me. You have no idea how hard I tried, how hard it is to grow up in the ghetto, no concept of the racism that exists, and what it means when some white guy tells you "you can free yourself from the ghetto if you work," (I'm talking about me, you, all of us saying that to them).

You're right, they can.....but getting them to understand that it's not bullshit is so hard. Everyone else in their lives tells them they can't. What can you do? This isn't as simple as a Horatio Alger story.

[il Padrino Ute]

What is stopping me from redefining the social contract and civilization as we know it? Laziness?

Why would you have to do it on such a large scale that it affects "civilization as we know it"? Find some like-minded folks and do it on a smaller scale - if you're not too lazy.

Actually Faith and I have done a pretty good job of carving out a pretty good little life for ourselves. We have found a nice little balance between work, leisure friends, family, public service, education, etc. If I could get myself to exercise a bit more we would have it all. Faith, on the other hand, is getting ready to run the L.A. marathon. So we have done alright for ourselves. But I don't fool myself. This moment in our lives was built on more than thirty years of extreme privilege. Our lifestyle (modest) and interests are an enigma to most folks in our neighborhood. I think we need better systems of sharing privilege with poor people.

There is a way to share privilege. It's called capitalism. Those who desire it can earn it if they're willing to work hard enough for it. What you seem to want are handouts for the unproductive.

I believe in charity, but it's only charity if it's not forced.

[il Padrino Ute]

It has been my experience that a kid in the ghetto doesn't understand that he can work himself out of that situation. I tried....believe me. You have no idea how hard I tried, how hard it is to grow up in the ghetto, no concept of the racism that exists, and what it means when some white guy tells you "you can free yourself from the ghetto if you work," (I'm talking about me, you, all of us saying that to them).

You're right, they can.....but getting them to understand that it's not bullshit is so hard. Everyone else in their lives tells them they can't. What can you do? This isn't as simple as a Horatio Alger story.

I appreciate you giving me useful insight to this. You're the first to have said that the hard part is getting them to understand it. The problem isn't someone like me who grew up in the suburbs telling them they can do it, the problem are those who tell these kids in the ghetto that they can't do it.

The focus should be on telling those folks to shut the hell up and allow these kids to make it. All we really can do is tell these kids that they can have a better life, but they have to want to work for it and they need to know that it's up to them and only them if they want out of that life.

Again, I do appreciate you pointing out that the tough part is getting these kids to understand that they are free to succeed because they're surrounded by so many who tell them otherwise.

[Tim]

There is a way to share privilege. It's called capitalism.

There's no sharing of anything in capitalism. I'm not saying that in a bitter way, or in a way that makes it seem like I disagree with it. I'm talking about it from the point of view of the definition itself. There is no sharing of anything in capitalism -- each individual works only to secure his own future growth.

When allowed to run free, capitalism erases the middle class. Rich get richer. It's only the healthy dose of social programming that's kept the middle class alive in this country, and in any country.

[Colly Wolly]

But you don't get it Colly Wolly......you grew up privileged, whether you'll admit it or not. There are whole GENERATIONS of kids who don't understand that they can succeed. Their families tell them they can't. Society tells them they can't. Security guards follow them around stores because of the color of their skin. They don't get a good job over someone else from a different class. They can't network the way wealthier, or even middle class folks can. They don't have access to private transportation. My Boy Scout troop in New Orleans had no plans to go to college because they all thought that they couldn't get in or pay for it.....nor did they see the value in doing so or know anyone from their own sub-culture who had.

Calling Robin a "real enemy" to your "values" is fucking narrow-minded. You are a poor conservative. People like William Buckley at least knew all sides to an issue when they spoke......that's why he was able to bring conservatism back from near-extinction.....he was bright, articulate, educated, and compassionate. He tried to understand the position of the Other, and he didn't despise them for their beliefs....rather, he wanted to help them via policies that he believed would work and be prudent at the same time. He also admitted when he made mistakes (e.g. supporting Segregation) and worked to correct those mistakes by positive action.

Robin isn't jealous of other people's success. Come off it already. I don't agree with Robin on this, but to say that he loathes other people and that he is a destroyer is rude, incurious, wrong-headed, and asinine.

There can be no dialogue with someone who supposes that the other person is "evil" just because they'd like to try a different way other than capitalism. Get over yourself.

I'm out the door so had to skim over this one, but what I could tell at first glance, your post seems to be filled with excuses. Those aren't a big part of my life. I'm not real familiar with them. You and your ilk seem to love to dwell upon them. Another characteristic of destroyers. Carry on.

[byu71]

There's no sharing of anything in capitalism. I'm not saying that in a bitter way, or in a way that makes it seem like I disagree with it. I'm talking about it from the point of view of the definition itself. There is no sharing of anything in capitalism -- each individual works only to secure his own future growth.

When allowed to run free, capitalism erases the middle class. Rich get richer. It's only the healthy dose of social programming that's kept the middle class alive in this country, and in any country.

There's no sharing of anything? Tim, you know that is an overstatement. I think Gates and Buffett are sharing and are going to share in a big way. I think Huntsman is sharing. I actually wonder if the 20/80 rule works in the church. I would guess more tithing is paid in the capitalistic countries than the non-capitalist countries.

There is a reason why the those that lean right tend to give more to charities than those that lean left. The reason, those that lean left believe in forced giving.

As far as capitalism running amuk. It isn't social programming that keeps capitalism in check, it is called market forces. Market forces are causing the end to the excesses of capitalism that occured, not social engineering.

[wuapinmon]

I'm out the door so had to skim over this one, but what I could tell at first glance, your post seems to be filled with excuses. Those aren't a big part of my life. I'm not real familiar with them. You and your ilk seem to love to dwell upon them. Another characteristic of destroyers. Carry on.

Of course they aren't a big part of your life....because you're a poor conservative....you make no attempt to understand the point of view of your opposition. I don't agree with my leftist friends, but I understand why they believe what they do, and I respect their beliefs.....when asked why I don't share them, I can articulate clear reasons why I disagree. My leftist friends, by the way, don't dismiss my beliefs either.....I'm never vilified, even when I was a Bush-voting die-hard conservative. Of course, these are educated people, people who have read and know how to think for themselves, and recognize that differences are not "evil," and that the other side isn't a "destroyer."

I was a conservative until I lived in New Orleans and experienced the life of the poor first hand.....and we're talking poverty like you cannot imagine in the US...poverty that knows no hope of ever getting any better due to failed Johnson-era social policies, the failed "War on Drugs," teenage pregnancy and the capitalistic benefits of keeping unwanted babies due to the government benefits they bring, institutional racism, defeatism, intellectual incuriousness, neighbors and family not letting you work because it messes up the government benefits, feeling like all the stuff you hear about being successful won't happen to you because you're a poor kid from the ghetto, schools so bad that you have to pass through metal detectors and deal with drug dealers on the premises, the constant threat of violence by gang members, and other economic disadvantages that I already spoke about above. So, Colly Wolly, you call them excuses, I call them reasons and causes. You have no fucking idea what you're talking about until you make an attempt to understand what it would be like to be a minority student from generations of poverty living in the ghetto or the impoverished countryside. You have no idea, no clue, and your reticence to want to understand makes you a poor conservative.

I used to be a conservative. Then I witnessed Hurricane Katrina strike my beloved city, and the response of the federal and state governments, the reactions of certain cities, like Houston and Dallas to AA refugees, and the general why-the-hell-didn't-they-get-themselves-out-of-town attitude broke my belief in 'compassionate conservatism.' I don't think such a thing exists. If those people at the Convention Center had been white, things would've been entirely different. Saying otherwise isn't being honest.

I don't know if people get the symbolism and tacit significance of having Ronald Reagan displayed in red and black like the classic Che Guevara icon from Communist Cuba. I'll point out that you should recognize that Cuba is still Communist and the same regime is in power while Reagan economic policies are crashing down all around us. I like Ronald Reagan; I don't think he'd like his image associated with that murdering Argentine bastard.

[byu71]

Of course they aren't a big part of your life....because you're a poor conservative....you make no attempt to understand the point of view of your opposition. I don't agree with my leftist friends, but I understand why they believe what they do, and I respect their beliefs.....when asked why I don't share them, I can articulate clear reasons why I disagree. My leftist friends, by the way, don't dismiss my beliefs either.....I'm never vilified, even when I was a Bush-voting die-hard conservative. Of course, these are educated people, people who have read and know how to think for themselves, and recognize that differences are not "evil," and that the other side isn't a "destroyer."

I was a conservative until I lived in New Orleans and experienced the life of the poor first hand.....and we're talking poverty like you cannot imagine in the US...poverty that knows no hope of ever getting any better due to failed Johnson-era social policies, the failed "War on Drugs," teenage pregnancy and the capitalistic benefits of keeping unwanted babies due to the government benefits they bring, institutional racism, defeatism, intellectual incuriousness, neighbors and family not letting you work because it messes up the government benefits, feeling like all the stuff you hear about being successful won't happen to you because you're a poor kid from the ghetto, schools so bad that you have to pass through metal detectors and deal with drug dealers on the premises, the constant threat of violence by gang members, and other economic disadvantages that I already spoke about above. So, Colly Wolly, you call them excuses, I call them reasons and causes. You have no fucking idea what you're talking about until you make an attempt to understand what it would be like to be a minority student from generations of poverty living in the ghetto or the impoverished countryside. You have no idea, no clue, and your reticence to want to understand makes you a poor conservative.

I used to be a conservative. Then I witnessed Hurricane Katrina strike my beloved city, and the response of the federal and state governments, the reactions of certain cities, like Houston and Dallas to AA refugees, and the general why-the-hell-didn't-they-get-themselves-out-of-town attitude broke my belief in 'compassionate conservatism.' I don't think such a thing exists. If those people at the Convention Center had been white, things would've been entirely different. Saying otherwise isn't being honest.

I don't know if people get the symbolism and tacit significance of having Ronald Reagan displayed in red and black like the classic Che Guevara icon from Communist Cuba. I'll point out that you should recognize that Cuba is still Communist and the same regime is in power while Reagan economic policies are crashing down all around us. I like Ronald Reagan; I don't think he'd like his image associated with that murdering Argentine bastard.

LOL, you are comparing Cuba and what has gone on there to what Reagan did and come out on the side of Castro. I hope you just got carried away and aren't really going to try and defend such an assinine statement.

[wuapinmon]

LOL, you are comparing Cuba and what has gone on there to what Reagan did and come out on the side of Castro. I hope you just got carried away and aren't really going to try and defend such an assinine statement.

That's right, no response to the bulk of my post, just focus on the Reagan thing, which is about his avatar, and be snide about that. I didn't come out on the the side of Castro....he's an evil man and Cuba's government are a bunch of corrupt crooks and evil men. My point was that I don't think Reagan would like that image. But by all means, focus on the avatar and not the questions I raised.

[byu71]

That's right, no response to the bulk of my post, just focus on the Reagan thing, which is about his avatar, and be snide about that. I didn't come out on the the side of Castro....he's an evil man and Cuba's government are a bunch of corrupt crooks and evil men. My point was that I don't think Reagan would like that image. But by all means, focus on the avatar and not the questions I raised.

That's right, if I had a problem with the bulk of your response I would have said so. I had a problem with just the part I felt was assinine. By your response here, I would guess you agree with me. On that part of the post you got carried away.

[RobinFinderson]

The problem isn't someone like me who grew up in the suburbs telling them they can do it, the problem are those who tell these kids in the ghetto that they can't do it.

Who are these people?

The focus should be on telling those folks to shut the hell up and allow these kids to make it. All we really can do is tell these kids that they can have a better life, but they have to want to work for it and they need to know that it's up to them and only them if they want out of that life.

How do you speak to these naysayers? If the folks you are talking about are the children's parents, how do you address the fact that they are often children themselves? How do you get the message to them without undermining their parental authority in front of their kids?

Again, I do appreciate you pointing out that the tough part is getting these kids to understand that they are free to succeed because they're surrounded by so many who tell them otherwise.

Who are these people?

[RobinFinderson]

As far as capitalism running amuk. It isn't social programming that keeps capitalism in check, it is called market forces. Market forces are causing the end to the excesses of capitalism that occured, not social engineering.

If capitalism is unable to produce social stability, in a world armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, that may be reason enough to try something different.

[Tim]

On that part of the post you got carried away.

No, 71, it seems like on that part of the post you misunderstood what he was saying.