Universal Healthcare

[TexTechCoug]

In addition access to health care does not equal a healthy populace. Everyone in the US has access, all you do is stroll into the ER, even for a hang nail and it gets treated. Wal-Mart, Walgreens, and Target all have a million medications that cost $4 a month. People don't take care of themselves because they don't want to, plain and simple.

Those 47 million Americans who are uninsured represent 10 million illegals, 8.5 million who make more than 75K, another 8.5 million who make more than 50K, and 10-15 million who qualify for Medicaid/Medicare and are too lazy to apply. Suddenly that 47 million turns into 5-10 million and doesn't seem like such a crisis.

[RobinFinderson]

When people have entitlement they are sure to be productive! That has always worked.

I'm not talking about socializing luxury items. People will have to work hard for their big houses and big screen televisions. The things I suggest socializing are all about enabling people who want to work hard and achieve the most in life.

We socialize the tools of upward mobility and hard work.

[TexTechCoug]

I've found in the practice of medicine that the vast majority of people who want to work hard and achieve aren't struggling with debilitating medical conditions. Hard workers may have diabetes or heart conditions, but they rarely are on disability or non-compliant with treatment.

The vast majority of people who do have chronic debilitating disease are those who have consciously gone against medical advice and continued their bad habits. It wouldn't matter how much "health care" they were provided because they don't feel any need or urgency to care for themselves, in fact many people use their medical problems as a crutch to avoid work and draw on government resources.

[il Padrino Ute]

Good point. Why people produce is as much a part of culture as it is human nature. I have faith in the American people. I think that given the chance, an educated and creative people will produce goods and services because they are curious, artistic, kind and generous. And if this isn't our culture yet, we can teach it. We can teach people to be good citizens. This has always been one of the primary goals of public education. The American Project needs to get bigger.

I'm afraid you live in a dream world, Robin. People produce goods to make money. It's always been that way. Yes, there are an infinitesimal amount of exceptions throughout history, but producing goods for money is the norm.

[Hallelujah]

I am a Libertarian. If I had my way, the federal government would only serve a few minor functions and almost all power would be held at the local level. The government would be tiny in comparison to the one we have now.

This is a pipe dream. We are no longer a free society. Taxpayer money is stolen and given to elite groups and friends of politicians. We waste vast amounts of money waging unnecessary wars in foreign lands. We are getting all the shitty parts of capitalism and very little of the good. It's time to embrace our socialist government and at least get something out of it. Universal Healthcare is the first thing I want. In 2005, the U.S. spent 15% GDP insuring a small amount of Americans. France spent 10.7% insuring everyone. Their healthcare system is superior to ours and it's not even close. I would be happy to be a military pussy like France in exchange for not worrying about whether my kids will be able to see a doctor if they are sick. Keep our nukes and tell the rest of the world that we are scaling back our conventional army, but won't hesitate to use the nukes. Don't believe us? Ask Japan!

You would rather go to France for your healthcare?

[ERCougar]

Hell, can't provide it for all of its children.

I spent 5 years in my twenties without health insurance.

Your twenties are hardly your childhood--one more example of rhetoric without much substance. I honestly can't think of anything else America can do to provide healthcare for its children. Every hospital in the country devotes manhours to enrolling kids in CHIP and Medicaid, not to mention the millions that states devote to CHIP enrollment programs, and yet still we hear cries of victimization. At some point, a parent needs to be willing to take some tiny bit of initiative for their child. You can lead a horse to water...

EDIT: By the way, I have mixed feelings on Universal Health Care. However, we are not dropping the ball with regards to children.

[Hallelujah]

Just downsize the military and raise taxes on the wealthy. Eventually a new generation of healthy, educated workers will rise up and be more productive than any generation before them. It will be a golden age, and the revenues from their productivity will pay for everything. Don't you have faith in the American people?

More educated workers will be more productive, because they are getting taxed more? Interesting thought.

Let's assume you took 100% of every wealthy persons income. How much would that be?

[Hallelujah]

It's been over a decade since I lived in France, but they had some awful hospitals. I spent four days in a hospital in eastern Turkey, and it was miles ahead of the French public ones.

The private hospitals in France, though, were beautiful. But you had to pay.

But I'm in agreement with the overall point that we need some form of cheaper health care available to people who don't qualify for medicaid. It's absolutely ridiculous that the richest, strongest, most prosperous country in the history of the world can't provide health care to all its citizens. Hell, can't provide it for all of its children.

I spent 5 years in my twenties without health insurance.

Why didn't you buy health insurance? Because you wanted someone else to take care of you?

Two huge groups make up the uninsured. "Undocumented aliens" and couples making over $70K who want to pay as you go if a medical need arises....and then don't. Instead they want someone else to pay for their folly.

[Hallelujah]

I'd be interested in something showing the productivity of workers in socialized countries vs. the productivity of U.S. workers.

No kidding. Waiting for Robin (Hood) to show us the study.

[Hallelujah]

Good point. Why people produce is as much a part of culture as it is human nature. I have faith in the American people. I think that given the chance, an educated and creative people will produce goods and services because they are curious, artistic, kind and generous. And if this isn't our culture yet, we can teach it. We can teach people to be good citizens. This has always been one of the primary goals of public education. The American Project needs to get bigger.

You live waaaayyyy to close to Disneyland.

[Hallelujah]

I'm not talking about socializing luxury items. People will have to work hard for their big houses and big screen televisions. The things I suggest socializing are all about enabling people who want to work hard and achieve the most in life.

We socialize the tools of upward mobility and hard work.

What the hell are you smoking? You put the terms 'socializing' and 'hard work' in the same sentence?

[ERCougar]

Just . . . raise taxes on the wealthy.

Are you really OK with this precedent? Sure you are, as long as the definition of wealthy only includes those making more than you.

I don't mind raising taxes on the wealthy to a greater extent than others, but I don't like the idea of targeting specific groups to pay for benefits for everyone else. Everyone else gets tax cuts and huge benefits, completely financed by tax hikes for the group that doesn't get any of the benefits. Doesn't that rub you a little wrong?

[RobinFinderson]

I'm afraid you live in a dream world, Robin. People produce goods to make money. It's always been that way. Yes, there are an infinitesimal amount of exceptions throughout history, but producing goods for money is the norm.

Your view of humanity is so cynical that it actually undermines the teachings of Jesus Christ. People can be taught to be good citizens, and not just good consumers. We can be a better people. This is why many folks go to church, because they see it as a school of sorts where through reflection on God, they can become better people. Just as we developed a culture that no longer looks at black children as potential slaves, we can develop a culture that sees ALL children as potential Einsteins and Michelangelos.

Don't socialize luxury. Give every child access to the best tools for becoming their best selves.

[Hallelujah]

Your twenties are hardly your childhood--one more example of rhetoric without much substance. I honestly can't think of anything else America can do to provide healthcare for its children. Every hospital in the country devotes manhours to enrolling kids in CHIP and Medicaid, not to mention the millions that states devote to CHIP enrollment programs, and yet still we hear cries of victimization. At some point, a parent needs to be willing to take some tiny bit of initiative for their child. You can lead a horse to water...

EDIT: By the way, I have mixed feelings on Universal Health Care. However, we are not dropping the ball with regards to children.

Here's a question for you: Of the ER visits in your hospital, how many are truly emergencies? And I'll leave the definition of 'emergency' up to you?

[Hallelujah]

Your view of humanity is so cynical that it actually undermines the teachings of Jesus Christ. People can be taught to be good citizens, and not just good consumers. We can be a better people. This is why many folks go to church, because they see it as a school of sorts where through reflection on God, they can become better people. Just as we developed a culture that no longer looks at black children as potential slaves, we can develop a culture that sees ALL children as potential Einsteins and Michelangelos.

Don't socialize luxury. Give every child access to the best tools for becoming their best selves.

Best tools = bad teachers? Are you willing to get rid of poor teachers?