The Police Brutality Thread

[swampfrog]

Interesting twitter thread on the shootings. Following people on both sides is interesting. It's impossible to get objectivity, because although there is a ton of video evidence in our modern society, that hasn't helped because access is controlled by ideologies.

This is going to get worse. You can't have armed citizens walking into these highly charged situations. You also can't have these riots continue to destroy property without government intervention--because armed citizens will walk into them. Some of the IDW crowd (and many others) have been warning about this for years. It isn't the left protesting/mobbing/rioting that is their biggest concern (though it is significant), it's the response from the right. You don't have to study evolutionary tribalism for very long to predict exactly this escalation, which they did. The same events as played out in CHAZ/CHOP will play out here, fear of armed resistance from the right will cause protests to create armed internal security forces.

The monopoly on violence by the state will result in some level of police/military brutality which must be checked by the citizenship. The abdication of that monopoly will result in the violence of mobs, which can be worse. There is no solution, only trade-offs. The human race is not going to rid itself of its innate tribal instincts.

The postmodern twist is interesting. It does not allow for resolution, if the underlying causes of the unrest can't be discussed in highly charged but civil discourse, the alternative is violence. Postmodernism rejects discourse as viable. What is left is competing narratives with no avenue for compromise or deescalation.

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[smokymountainrain]

it's funny, when black men get shot by cops, they should have just wised up and used common sense because the cop had a gun. when a 17 year old loads up his ar-15 and drives over the border to a violent riot and the inevitable confrontation happens, everybody else should have wised up because that's his right. wonder why trayvon martin didn't get the same benefit of the doubt when he went to get skittles and iced tea.

i don't know how the wisconsin homicide statute works and there might be some overcharging here, but how can anybody begin to morally rationalize this? in what world is it ok for civilians to be roaming the streets in plate carriers looking for fights over the defense of property in a community they're not part of? we're pepper spraying journalists and blinding protesters with rubber bullets, but the cops show up and give water to and encourage these people? this is a symptom of a broken policing model.

this is actually very similar to the zimmerman case. two people with guns who were emboldened by the fact they had a gun in their possession, so they went and inserted themselves into situations where they might have to use those guns to kill people. the law may exonerate them, but their decisions are reckless, dangerous and immoral. that said, i have some sympathy for kenosha because it was a dumb ass 17 year old who thought he was doing the right thing. zimmerman is just a piece of shit all together.

[swampfrog]

Given the current situation, what do the black Americans feel about police presence in their neighborhoods?

https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/...-presence.aspx

Bottom Line

It's not so much the volume of interactions Black Americans have with the police that troubles them or differentiates them from other racial groups, but rather the quality of those interactions.


Most Black Americans want the police to spend at least as much time in their area as they currently do, indicating that they value the need for the service that police provide. However, that exposure comes with more trepidation for Black than White or Hispanic Americans about what they might experience in a police encounter. And those harboring the least confidence that they will be treated well, or who have had negative encounters in the past, are much more likely to want the police presence curtailed.


These results correspond with Gallup's previously reported findings showing that only 22% of Black Americans favor abolishing police departments. However, the vast majority believe reform is needed, with upward of 90% favoring specific reforms aimed at improving police relations with the communities they serve and preventing or punishing abusive police behavior.


In these findings, policymakers may find a path forward that helps the police both protect communities and establish relations that make all citizens feel good about their presence.

[old_gregg]

this is actually very similar to the zimmerman case. two people with guns who were emboldened by the fact they had a gun in their possession, so they went and inserted themselves into situations where they might have to use those guns to kill people. the law may exonerate them, but their decisions are reckless, dangerous and immoral. that said, i have some sympathy for kenosha because it was a dumb ass 17 year old who thought he was doing the right thing. zimmerman is just a piece of shit all together.

agreed on all counts. dumb 17 year old, but why are the police encouraging or at least looking the other way from knuckleheads in tactical gear with assault rifles? this kid's mom was apparently a thin blue liner, too, and that makes her culpable.

[Bo Diddley]

that bit is actually quite profound and is really the only solution to this problem. you have to increase funding so you can hire better people and improve and increase training. some jobs can't have bad apples, he says. but when you are paying $35k, you are going to get a lot of bad apples. and when you don't train them, you are going to get good apples who make horrible decisions. rock then goes on to joke that american airlines can't have bad apples - yeah, and american airlines is paying their pilots $120k.

this shit isn't rocket science. you want good cops, you want to root out the bad apples? hire better people and give them better training.

The police culture has to change. I've witnessed it firsthand.

But in a lot of ways, you also get what you pay for. The training investment in a single police officer is significant. Departments do not easily fire officers who should be let go because of the replacement cost. Community policing is expensive. They used to walk a beat, but now we put them in a car so they can do more with less officers. Often the wages are too low to attract the type of people you want as police officers.

I've said it many times--you get what you pay for. When the economy goes down, you'll recruit more quality people who are willing to work for less money, but when the economy's humming along, they often then quit. Higher pay and just as important, more money for trainimg will go a long ways to fixing things.

We over incarcerate in this country and in many ways over police.

At the end of the day, you get what you pay for.

[swampfrog]

New York Times breaks down the events, pretty even-handed, though probably still early.

[Northwestcoug]

Would that increased funding and pay for cops would solve the systemic generational problems of the institution. That would be an easy sell for most people if it were true.

[falafel]

The police culture has to change. I've witnessed it firsthand.

But in a lot of ways, you also get what you pay for. The training investment in a single police officer is significant. Departments do not easily fire officers who should be let go because of the replacement cost. Community policing is expensive. They used to walk a beat, but now we put them in a car so they can do more with less officers. Often the wages are too low to attract the type of people you want as police officers.

Quoting your old post Bo to add my two cents on the bolded portion. An added layer, and perhaps a thicker layer, to this issue is that police unions are so strong that it is virtually impossible to fire officers, even when their actions would result in firing for any normal person. Every single step in discipline is grieved, even the most minor and warranted, so that disciplining and training officers is incredibly costly and often counterproductive.

[Uncle Ted]

They had it coming, amirite? Vigilante justice ftw!

Nope... no vigilante. It looks like 17 yo gunman killed these two in self defense to me.

[Commando]

Nope... no vigilante. It looks like 17 yo gunman killed these two in self defense to me.

Yeah that poor kid was forced to gear up and cross a state line to insert himself into a conflict just to defend himself! Great take.

[Northwestcoug]

Nope... no vigilante. It looks like 17 yo gunman killed these two in self defense to me.

*In Patrick Star’s voice*

Hey, it works FS!

[frank ryan]

agreed on all counts. dumb 17 year old, but why are the police encouraging or at least looking the other way from knuckleheads in tactical gear with assault rifles? this kid's mom was apparently a thin blue liner, too, and that makes her culpable.

sounds like they were encouraging the "militia." I think a lot of police see them as idealogical brethren. Why were the folksy Bundys able to get away with their bullshit more than once? The oathkeepers are basically composed of police and military and military people (at least in theory). They are one of the more active fashy militias out there.

[Uncle Ted]

Yeah that poor kid was forced to gear up and cross a state line to insert himself into a conflict just to defend himself! Great take.

After the jury of his peers watch a few youtube videos of the victims friends beating up business owners and burning their hard work down I don't think they will give a f*ck...

This all is just helping Drumpf get re-elected.

[Commando]

After the jury of his peers watch a few youtube videos of the victims friends beating up business owners and burning their hard work down I don't think they will give a f*ck...

This all is just helping Drumpf get re-elected.

Yes because that is all admissible evidence. Try again, try hard.

[frank ryan]

After the jury of his peers watch a few youtube videos of the victims friends beating up business owners and burning their hard work down I don't thing they will give a f*ck...

This all is just helping Drumpf get re-elected.

Lol, ok fascist Ted, that's how you court proceedings to go?