The Police Brutality Thread

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I had suspicions that Colin Kaepernick was an asshole. There is some satisfaction when one's bias is so obviously confirmed. I am more bothered by those seeking to justify or even make his actions somehow noble. He has his right to be an asshole, as one who understands what the flag stands for I will fight for him to have his right, but the rest of us are not obligated to somehow defend him.

I also want to see the war on drugs ended. Not because I have any visions of grandeur of how it will suddenly reverse the course of cyclical poverty among minority communities but because I think fighting on the supply side of this war is dumb, always has been and always will be. If it is the great cure to cyclical poverty among minority communities that every other social engineering foray has failed to do - then God Bless us all, but I sure don't expect it.

Kaeprnick has a responsibility to his teammates to put the team in the best position to win. If he felt strongly about these matters, there were far less distracting and constructive ways to address it. I believe USA Today interviewed him about it and asked him about whether sitting down was a "blanket indictment" of the country and he didn't know what the term "blanket indictment" meant.

I guess Kaepernick is just trying to encourage us to live up to that Cuban record on human rights.

[Eddie]

Get back to me when he (or you for that matter) can articulate some rational relationship between the object of his protest (which is apparently something about minorities being killed unjustly, as though anyone would be in favor of that) and the subject of his protest, which is the American flag.

He can do whatever he wants, but I agree with those saying this is a dumb approach. The flag tends to not just represent our country, but also is more closely associated with the military. Where, if I recall correctly, minorities tend to be over-represented. I know I'm over thinking this, but what he's doing could be pretty offensive to all of those Black folks who have fought and/or died for freedom.

If he were actually intelligent enough to string it together, I suppose there could be a deeper message in that. But I can't give him the credit, because he hasn't done it.

I agree with the concept that something has to be done to address these issues - both of police brutality, and of the underlying problems that have gotten us to where we are now. I truly wish that all of these "celebrity" types would come together behind something beyond a movement focused on cops sucking. Couldn't they throw some cash into a think tank to come up with some brilliant ideas that they can then propose and begin rallying support for?

...I think sabbatical for cops should be a guaranteed job requirement. Six months of training followed by six months of paid vacation every seven years.

When you get the attention of those in charge and start pushing this idea - I suggest you flip it around. I'm thinking that the six months of training would be more useful if it came after their vacation so as to prepare them for their return to the front lines of policing.

[clackamascoug]

What is the answer?

Is that what the millennium is... a reboot to get rid of the virus so we can run free of bloatware and operate on a higher level?

What is the bloatware of our society?
- racial discrimination?
- uber vigilant police force?
- drugs?
- lazy people who neglect education?
- corrupt government?
- Those damn chinese?

Explain to me what you would do to end the war on drugs.

[byu71]

Finally, study after study has shown that black kids are convicted and given harsh sentences at a much higher ratio than whites, even when you scale for all factors. It is a horrible system.

Did the studies indicate if this was because of systemic racism thoughout the law enforcement and the legal community or because whites in general are able to hire better attorneys?

By the way I heard something about the black community in Baltimore asking for more policing, because of the increased crime in their neighborhoods. Has anyone else heard this?

[Goatnapper'96]

It goes far beyond the supply and demand issue. When the crack epidemic hit, most countries chose to focus resources on drug rehab programs. We chose mass incarceration. Prior to that time, the max sentence for drug possession for ANY kind of drug was six months. Then we changed it and started sending kids away for five years for pot possession. You take a young kid in the prime of his life and have him do five years of hard time and you destroy him. No college opportunity and as a convicted felon he can't vote and will most likely not be able to find a job. Career criminal is the most likely outcome.

Furthermore, harsh sentencing completely changes the dynamics of the legal system. Prosecutors are armed with grossly extreme sentencing options so they rarely have to go to trial. You just dangle a plea deal and the poor kids have no option but to accept, whether they are guilty or not, because the stakes are so high. And most of these folks can't afford good legal counsel.

Finally, study after study has shown that black kids are convicted and given harsh sentences at a much higher ratio than whites, even when you scale for all factors. It is a horrible system.

I will agree that it has had many unforseen negative consequences. However, I am still skeptical it will change things at all. But if promising it will helps the US to change to a smarter policy, then God Bless us All!

[imanihonjin]

I will agree that it has had many unforseen negative consequences. However, I am still skeptical it will change things at all. But if promising it will helps the US to change to a smarter policy, then God Bless us All!

There will always be an underbelly of society willing to take illegal risks in exchange for money. Sure we can end the war on drugs (how do we do this....are you saying we make all drugs legal or are you just saying the punishments for drugs shouldn't be as severe?) but that won't eliminate poverty, or the lack of education and opportunities available to the lower class. Individuals will still be willing to take risks for cash. They will simply focus there efforts on other things.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Did the studies indicate if this was because of systemic racism thoughout the law enforcement and the legal community or because whites in general are able to hire better attorneys?

That is a great question. That is indeed a disproportionate impact on poor people due to lack of resources. Public defenders have a tiny budget and sometimes first meet a client 15 minutes before going in front of a judge. They are completely at the mercy of the prosecutors.

However, even when you factor for poverty, blacks get harsher sentences. Interestingly, studies have shown that even people who are devoted to racial equality and are both privately and publicly against racism are subconsciously more harsh toward blacks. For example, they do controlled studies where they show people a series of photos and ask them questions like "On a scale of 1 to 10, how likely do you think it is that this person would commit a crime?" and most people -- regardless of background -- tend to assume blacks are more likely to be guilty and deserving of punishment. Advocacy groups have fought to change how sentencing works based on these data and it has gone all the way to the SCOTUS several times. In each case (typically with 5-4 decisions) the court has ruled that even if it is conclusively shown that sentencing has a strong racial bias, you can't appeal it unless you can directly prove in each individual case that racial bias was a factor. Which of course, is nearly impossible to prove on individual cases.

[byu71]

That is a great question. That is indeed a disproportionate impact on poor people due to lack of resources. Public defenders have a tiny budget and sometimes first meet a client 15 minutes before going in front of a judge. They are completely at the mercy of the prosecutors.

However, even when you factor for poverty, blacks get harsher sentences. Interestingly, studies have shown that even people who are devoted to racial equality and are both privately and publicly against racism are subconsciously more harsh toward blacks. For example, they do controlled studies where they show people a series of photos and ask them questions like "On a scale of 1 to 10, how likely do you think it is that this person would commit a crime?" and most people -- regardless of background -- tend to assume blacks are more likely to be guilty and deserving of punishment. Advocacy groups have fought to change how sentencing works based on these data and it has gone all the way to the SCOTUS several times. In each case (typically with 5-4 decisions) the court has ruled that even if it is conclusively shown that sentencing has a strong racial bias, you can't appeal it unless you can directly prove in each individual case that racial bias was a factor. Which of course, is nearly impossible to prove on individual cases.

Usually the subconcios mis-trust I would think could be explained by, you don't look like me. However, I am pretty sure that one of those studies showed even blacks shown the pictures were more harsh toward blacks.

Although I wish it weren't so, I probably have the same subconcious problem. I also have it when I see long haired college students or head to foot tatooed athletes no matter their race.

Maybe the media could help by when there are riots, killings like the two nuns or unruly protests they just report the story without any pictures.

I have to admit whether subconcious or not, when I hear of a mass shooting I think younger white male.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Usually the subconcios mis-trust I would think could be explained by, you don't look like me. However, I am pretty sure that one of those studies showed even blacks shown the pictures were more harsh toward blacks.

Although I wish it weren't so, I probably have the same subconcious problem. I also have it when I see long haired college students or head to foot tatooed athletes no matter their race.

Maybe the media could help by when there are riots, killings like the two nuns or unruly protests they just report the story without any pictures.

I have to admit whether subconcious or not, when I hear of a mass shooting I think younger white male.

Yes, you are right. Even blacks sometimes show subconscious bias.

Things like long hair and tattoos are based on personal decisions. Skin color is not.

[cowboy]

That is a great question. That is indeed a disproportionate impact on poor people due to lack of resources. Public defenders have a tiny budget and sometimes first meet a client 15 minutes before going in front of a judge. They are completely at the mercy of the prosecutors.

However, even when you factor for poverty, blacks get harsher sentences. Interestingly, studies have shown that even people who are devoted to racial equality and are both privately and publicly against racism are subconsciously more harsh toward blacks. For example, they do controlled studies where they show people a series of photos and ask them questions like "On a scale of 1 to 10, how likely do you think it is that this person would commit a crime?" and most people -- regardless of background -- tend to assume blacks are more likely to be guilty and deserving of punishment. Advocacy groups have fought to change how sentencing works based on these data and it has gone all the way to the SCOTUS several times. In each case (typically with 5-4 decisions) the court has ruled that even if it is conclusively shown that sentencing has a strong racial bias, you can't appeal it unless you can directly prove in each individual case that racial bias was a factor. Which of course, is nearly impossible to prove on individual cases.

Is this demonstrative of racism or our culture? Crime in black communities is much more prevalent than other racially homogenous communities, and convicted criminals are disproportionately black. I'm not saying that skin color determines a person's honesty or willingness to commit crime, and there are a lot of causal factors regarding criminal demographics, but statistically, it is not racist at all to say that black people are more likely to commit a crime than people of any other race. After adjusting for income and family background, the probability gap largely disappears, but unadjusted, there is certainly a difference in criminal probability between races. I don't know the data, but I suspect education level is more correlated with crime than almost any other single factor.

[byu71]

Any studies showing a correlation between going to jail and being from a household with no father?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Is this demonstrative of racism or our culture? Crime in black communities is much more prevalent than other racially homogenous communities, and convicted criminals are disproportionately black. I'm not saying that skin color determines a person's honesty or willingness to commit crime, and there are a lot of causal factors regarding criminal demographics, but statistically, it is not racist at all to say that black people are more likely to commit a crime than people of any other race. After adjusting for income and family background, the probability gap largely disappears, but unadjusted, there is certainly a difference in criminal probability between races. I don't know the data, but I suspect education level is more correlated with crime than almost any other single factor.

Give the researchers a little credit. These are legit, carefully controlled studies where all those factors are accounted for. The point is when you scale and filter for all of those factors, there is an innate subconscious bias against colored people that transcends the left and right. And that, partially at least, helps explain how blacks get grossly disproportionate sentences.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Any studies showing a correlation between going to jail and being from a household with no father?

Absolutely. And why do they not have a father? Because they are likely in jail due to our policy of mass incarceration. We are ensuring that this is a generational problem.

[byu71]

Absolutely. And why do they not have a father? Because they are likely in jail due to our policy of mass incarceration. We are ensuring that this is a generational problem.

You may be right and if studies show you are, I am wrong in thinking it is a cultural thing. I think the single parent thing has caught on in the caucasian culture, just not to the same extent. I would guess the hispanic culture has the least single parent families. All this is a guess.

In carcination, how long how often is a big time question. Wade's cousin was shot by two men out on parole.

When gang bangers are arrested and in the news, I am amazed at how long their rap sheets are.

[Jeff Lebowski]

If anyone is interesting in exploring this problem more deeply, I would like to recommend a couple of book. Here is the first:

Tulia: Race, Cocaine, and Corruption in a Small Texas Town

https://www.amazon.com/Tulia-Cocaine...keywords=tulia

This book tells the true story of how 39 people (mostly black and poor) were convicted on cocaine busts by a white undercover officer who was eager to get some busts to further his career. He won several awards. In all cases, there was zero evidence other than the cop's testimony. Nevertheless, almost all were convicted and given extreme sentences up to 99 years. 39 effing convictions with no evidence. How is that possible? Harsh sentencing laws and a system completely rigged in favor of the prosecution and biased against poor colored people. A perfect case study of everything wrong with the War on Drugs.

Also,

The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness

https://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-...e+new+jim+crow

This book is an indictment of the War on Drugs, mass incarceration, and our criminal justice system. After reading the introduction I thought, "Pshaw... No way. This sounds like over-the-top, Al-Sharpton-style propaganda." But the author then tackles each issue slowly and methodically, with tons of hard data. The author addresses arguments and counter-arguments fairly and convincingly. I came into this already convinced that the War on Drugs was a mistake, but the book really opened my eyes to the extraordinary impact it has had. Highly recommended.