The Police Brutality Thread

[Jeff Lebowski]

I'm gonna stand by my 'cops shouldn't use running down pedestrians as a routine solution to dangerous situations' statement.

This is routine now?

What should be routine in cases like this? Specific answer, please.

[Northwestcoug]

This is routine now?

What should be routine in cases like this? Specific answer, please.

I never said it was routine. All I'm saying is that even though potentially deadly force seemed called for in this case, running down a criminal at near highway speeds doesn't seem like the best solution.

I don't know what the best answer in this situation should be. I don't have a specific answer for you. But if this situation ended up with an innocent bystander also being hit, we wouldn't be arguing about options. We would be rightly condemning what seems like a rash decision by the cop.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I never said it was routine. All I'm saying is that even though potentially deadly force seemed called for in this case, running down a criminal at near highway speeds doesn't seem like the best solution.

The fact that you cannot come up with an alternative is pretty strong evidence that there isn't a simple easy answer in cases like this.

I don't know what the best answer in this situation should be. I don't have a specific answer for you. But if this situation ended up with an innocent bystander also being hit, we wouldn't be arguing about options. We would be rightly condemning what seems like a rash decision by the cop.

Sure, and if it had ended up with an innocent bystander shot and killed, we wouldn't be arguing about options.

I hear this guy started a church on fire and then stole the rifle. After all the mass shootings we have seen in recent years, I can't believe anyone would question the use of deadly force to stop a lunatic firing in public. Good grief.

[old_gregg]

I never said it was routine. All I'm saying is that even though potentially deadly force seemed called for in this case, running down a criminal at near highway speeds doesn't seem like the best solution.

I don't know what the best answer in this situation should be. I don't have a specific answer for you. But if this situation ended up with an innocent bystander also being hit, we wouldn't be arguing about options. We would be rightly condemning what seems like a rash decision by the cop.

and if the mentally unstable person firing a weapon would have ended up shooting an innocent bystander or cop, we'd be wondering why more aggressive action wasn't taken. sorry, when you start shooting a gun in public you lose your right to get tazed. we rely on cops to make judgment calls. maybe the cop's judgment was that it would have been unsafe to engage a guy with a rifle when all he's got is his duty weapon, or there wasn't time to do that. if his training, instincts, and sense of situational awareness told him to run the guy over, he did the right thing.

[Surfah]

The fact that you cannot come up with an alternative is pretty strong evidence that there isn't a simple easy answer in cases like this.



Sure, and if it had ended up with an innocent bystander shot and killed, we wouldn't be arguing about options.

I hear this guy started a church on fire and then stole the rifle. After all the mass shootings we have seen in recent years, I can't believe anyone would question the use of deadly force to stop a lunatic firing in public. Good grief.

This guy committed armed robbery of a convenience store in the morning. Then he broke into a home and stole a car. Then he set fire to an occupied church. Then went to Wal-Mart where he stole a rifle and ammo. Then he's walking the streets shooting into the air.

I cannot believe that people have an issue with using deadly force in this situation. There is no training for this kind of situation. The officer did what was necessary.

[wuapinmon]

This guy committed armed robbery of a convenience store in the morning. Then he broke into a home and stole a car. Then he set fire to an occupied church. Then went to Wal-Mart where he stole a rifle and ammo. Then he's walking the streets shooting into the air.

I cannot believe that people have an issue with using deadly force in this situation. There is no training for this kind of situation. The officer did what was necessary.

Check out this crime spree.

William Todd traveled to Nashville on Monday by Greyhound bus and, during a lull in his trip, started wreaking havoc at 3 a.m. by breaking into a business and stealing a Taser, a revolver and a shotgun, WSMV-TV reported. He proceeded to shoot the place up, steal a T-shirt and then light the building on fire, police say.
View the timeline and photo below.
Then Todd found four people leaving a nearby bar. He held them at gunpoint, Tased one, pistol whipped another and stole their cash and credit cards, cops said.
Just five minutes later, he allegedly jacked a cab and sped off to spend his victims' money at Walmart. He unloaded $200 and headed for downtown, according to NBC Miami.
That's when things got really weird.
He reportedly found a law office, ransacked the place and defecated on a desk. He smeared feces on some framed law degrees before moving on to an adjacent hotel, police said.
Inside, Todd allegedly went door to door pretending to be a female housekeeper in an attempt to rob guests. He held a Canadian couple at gunpoint and took $600 -- crying the whole time, according to WSMV.
At some point in the hotel, he shaved his long red ponytail. Security footage shows a completely bald man leaving that is apparently him.
At about 9 a.m., Todd crashed his stolen cab into a parking garage. Two hours later, he hailed a new cab and at knifepoint kicked out the driver.
Cops were hot on his tail at this point. He drove to the Opry Mills shopping mall just outside of the city center, where he tried to submerge himself in a vat of water, with only his nose exposed, the Daily Mail reported.
But an eagle-eyed officer spotted him and brought his rampage to an end.

[Shaka]

Looked brutal but was seems like a good tactic keeping a car between the rifle and the officer.

[Northwestcoug]

The fact that you cannot come up with an alternative is pretty strong evidence that there isn't a simple easy answer in cases like this.

Who said there is a simple easy answer to this? I didn't.

Sure, and if it had ended up with an innocent bystander shot and killed, we wouldn't be arguing about options.

I hear this guy started a church on fire and then stole the rifle. After all the mass shootings we have seen in recent years, I can't believe anyone would question the use of deadly force to stop a lunatic firing in public. Good grief.

Who is questioning the use of deadly force? I'm sure as hell not doing it. Let me try to be very clear. I am questioning the very specific act of running down a perpetrator at high speeds in what appears to be a residential area. This guy's actions require the use of deadly force. No question about it. I may be wrong, but there's got to be safer ways of taking someone out.

and if the mentally unstable person firing a weapon would have ended up shooting an innocent bystander or cop, we'd be wondering why more aggressive action wasn't taken. sorry, when you start shooting a gun in public you lose your right to get tazed. we rely on cops to make judgment calls. maybe the cop's judgment was that it would have been unsafe to engage a guy with a rifle when all he's got is his duty weapon, or there wasn't time to do that. if his training, instincts, and sense of situational awareness told him to run the guy over, he did the right thing.

Not arguing with you there. A taser would be a completely inappropriate response in this instance. I never suggested otherwise.

This guy committed armed robbery of a convenience store in the morning. Then he broke into a home and stole a car. Then he set fire to an occupied church. Then went to Wal-Mart where he stole a rifle and ammo. Then he's walking the streets shooting into the air.

I cannot believe that people have an issue with using deadly force in this situation. There is no training for this kind of situation. The officer did what was necessary.

See above. I have no issue using deadly force in this situation. I'm arguing, with the benefit of hindsight and a very lucky outcome (no collateral injuries), that running down pedestrians is not an ideal solution. I think this is a reasonable statement. You claim that there is no training for this kind of situation. I understand the sentiment, but I sure hope there is training for this and multiple other deadly situations. Personally, I doubt that police units around the country will use this scenario and recommend running down people in communities as an acceptable deadly force option. This is not a condemnation per se of the officer; again, everyone is pretty lucky the way it turned out. But I hope responsible people can analyze this and any other instance of deadly force, and give criticism when necessary.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Who is questioning the use of deadly force? I'm sure as hell not doing it. Let me try to be very clear. I am questioning the very specific act of running down a perpetrator at high speeds in what appears to be a residential area. This guy's actions require the use of deadly force. No question about it. I may be wrong, but there's got to be safer ways of taking someone out.

As opposed to what? Guns blazing "in what appears to be a residential area"?

What rapid use of deadly force carries less risk than what happened?

[Northwestcoug]

As opposed to what? Guns blazing "in what appears to be a residential area"?

What rapid use of deadly force carries less risk than what happened?

Let's pretend we're both bystanders on the corner near the perpetrator. Are you telling me you trust the accuracy of a car barreling down its target as opposed to a trained shooter? I'll take my chances with the guns. I would hope that at least one cop has him in his sights, and that if he started to point his rifle anywhere besides up, he would be shot before too many guns went blazing.

[old_gregg]

Let's pretend we're both bystanders on the corner near the perpetrator. Are you telling me you trust the accuracy of a car barreling down its target as opposed to a trained shooter? I'll take my chances with the guns. I would hope that at least one cop has him in his sights, and that if he started to point his rifle anywhere besides up, he would be shot before too many guns went blazing.

come on man, you are being crazy here. sure you'll take your chances with a cop who's trained and not aiming at you, but what about the crazy guy who's been shooting and setting stuff on fire all day? and you know how close a cop would have to get to be accurate with a handgun? much closer than the max deadly range of a rifle.

[Northwestcoug]

come on man, you are being crazy here. sure you'll take your chances with a cop who's trained and not aiming at you, but what about the crazy guy who's been shooting and setting stuff on fire all day? and you know how close a cop would have to get to be accurate with a handgun? much closer than the max deadly range of a rifle.

Yeah, if I'm a bystander near the guy, I'm still gonna trust a cop shooting him over trying to target him with his car. Even if it is a handgun. Sorry if that's crazy.

[old_gregg]

Yeah, if I'm a bystander near the guy, I'm still gonna trust a cop shooting him over trying to target him with his car. Even if it is a handgun. Sorry if that's crazy.

the cop is not the only one shooting.

[Northwestcoug]

the cop is not the only one shooting.

You're right. Still gonna take those chances though. Something about the precision steering of a car going 50+ mph after jumping a curb and hitting a person makes me a little nervous.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Yeah, if I'm a bystander near the guy, I'm still gonna trust a cop shooting him over trying to target him with his car. Even if it is a handgun. Sorry if that's crazy.

Yeah that is a little crazy.