Elizabeth Smart testimony today

[NorthwestUteFan]

How do you all feel about the SL Trib publishing word for word Elizabeth's testimony?

There is a significant amount of perverse voyeurism, as IndyCoug stated. It is simply a way to post incredibly lurid details under the pretext of 'news'. It is legalized pr0n.

FWIW there is a significant precedent for this kind of thing. The LA Times posted the names and addresses of the Rodney King jurors during the riots...

[The_Tick]

She texted me asking about slavery in her American Heritage class, and about slaves being forced to have children...creating a free work force. Her question was "If a white child of a slave owner grows up and owns slaves, is that child going to be held accountable for any wrongdoings to slaves? If they never knew what they were doing was wrong?"

I responded with "Not until they come to a realization that what they did was wrong. Once they found out owning slaves was wrong, if they don't do anything about it they will be held accountable.

It is the same way we LDS folks think about folks when they find out if the gospel is true or not...at that moment that you have knowledge you have to decide.

Here is the text she sent me in response: (As to not have it be taken out of context for the lawyers/engineers on the board)

TK1: Same thought process for that lady, Elizabeth something or other? The one who was kidnapped and raped everyday for 9 months. She drank alchohol beforehand so she wouldn't feel the pain. Is she held responsible for that?

Me: Do you think God would be just if he held her accountable for that?

TK1: People argued in Psych yesterday that she was wrong in doing so because she was breaking commandments. Which bothers me. Would they rather she suffer in pain?

Me: Messed up thought process. An LDS Apostle once said that it would be better to have a rapist kill you than to let him take your virginity from you. Really? That is BS.

Your virginity is something you decide to give away. S omeone can't take it from you. (If you understand the context.)

As the parent of two daughters, I would hope my girls did the same the Ms. Smart did to survive...which is more important.


She has two psych classes. Psych 100 with a ton of students, and Psych 111 with a normal size class. I am not sure which of the two this happened in.

I know there are people that have this thought process, but I have to chalk it up with them being really young and naive. Also...there is no way they have children.

[Indy Coug]

I went to BYU. I know the kind of nut jobs that are there. If Tick's daughter is embellishing, then fine. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt based on what I observed and the freaks I interacted with. Hell, I was down there a couple months ago. People walking though THE MATH BUILDING singing How Great Thou Art. Jonestown.

I don't think she's necessarily embellishing, I think the problem lies with what people are doing with that information to draw generalized conclusions about BYU's student body as a whole.

I've traveled all over this country and all over the world and lived in 11 different states/countries. There are nut jobs everywhere. Amazingly enough, I've found that the nut jobs are both loud and the distinct minority. BYU is no different.

[Jeff Lebowski]

People walking though THE MATH BUILDING singing How Great Thou Art..

Oh, the humanity.

[Colly Wolly]

I don't think she's necessarily embellishing, I think the problem lies with what people are doing with that information to draw generalized conclusions about BYU's student body as a whole.

I've traveled all over this country and all over the world and lived in 11 different states/countries. There are nut jobs everywhere. Amazingly enough, I've found that the nut jobs are both loud and the distinct minority. BYU is no different.

Agree. Maybe I'm knee-jerking because these are my nut jobs.

[Colly Wolly]

Oh, the humanity.

Indeed. I sat there wondering if that guy would be the next Brian David Mitchell.

[LiveCoug]

Anyone who thinks that even ONE ounce of blame or guilt falls on E Smart's shoulders is ridiculous. She is completely blameless.

[Clark Addison]

It is very easy to guage the "conservative BYU" view on this. We have a large sample of these folks right down the electronic street on cougarboard.com. If you have read anything about this case on that board recently, you will know that if you go there and post that Elizabeth will be held accountable for breaking the WOW and Law of Chastity, you will have 90%+ of the posters calling you an idiot. And remember, that is from a group that skews conservative even for BYU.

Similar to stories of topless ladies at Utah football games, this is the type of anecdote that people who already don't like the school will latch onto as proof that they were right all along. I certainly have some issues with BYU, but I don't believe for a minute that anything other than a tiny group believes this.

[DapperDan]

First of all, drinking beer isn't a sin. It's plain as day in the D&C. Barley is for mild drinks. Now that we agree on that, are you saying she should have bit his Jacobs off, and because she didn't she's guilty?

She drank more than beer, so that's not relevant, and I don't personally care that she drank anything. She did attempt to fight off the rape so I don't get the complaint there, besides the fact that it was rape.

But I think the students have a point. Smart acknowledges that she was aware of what she was doing (at least some of the time) when she drank. Based on what I was taught growing up in the church (I don't happen to agree with this point anymore) her voluntary actions, regardless of the situation, would be sin.

[creekster]

what does it mean to "answer to God?" Sure, she will answer to GOd. we all will. And we will all have to justify or explain or repent from all our sins. Some sins will be forgiven or allowed, if you will, because they are justified. "Yes I shot and killed the man with the gun because he was shooting at my children." It was a sin to kill, but the sin was justified. Other sins will require repentance, which is available to all of us. As an academic exercise I can see a professor encouraging this sort of discussion, but I seriously doubt that the professor promoted the notion that her use of alcohol under those circumstances was sinful so as to require her to be punished.

[Colly Wolly]

She drank more than beer, so that's not relevant, and I don't personally care that she drank anything. She did attempt to fight off the rape so I don't get the complaint there, besides the fact that it was rape.

But I think the students have a point. Smart acknowledges that she was aware of what she was doing (at least some of the time) when she drank. Based on what I was taught growing up in the church (I don't happen to agree with this point anymore) her voluntary actions, regardless of the situation, would be sin.

Your avatar is appropriate for your persona.

[DapperDan]

Your avatar is appropriate for your persona.

LOL, not even close

[Colly Wolly]

Similar to stories of topless ladies at Utah football games, this is the type of anecdote that people who already don't like the school will latch onto as proof that they were right all along. I certainly have some issues with BYU, but I don't believe for a minute that anything other than a tiny group believes this.

The topless lady incident is case in point why I would have gone to the U if it wasn't such an academically inferior institution.

[The_Tick]

what does it mean to "answer to God?" Sure, she will answer to GOd. we all will. And we will all have to justify or explain or repent from all our sins. Some sins will be forgiven or allowed, if you will, because they are justified. "Yes I shot and killed the man with the gun because he was shooting at my children." It was a sin to kill, but the sin was justified. Other sins will require repentance, which is available to all of us. As an academic exercise I can see a professor encouraging this sort of discussion, but I seriously doubt that the professor promoted the notion that her use of alcohol under those circumstances was sinful so as to require her to be punished.

The prof. wasn't the one who started the conversation, but he allowed it to happen. And I honeslty believe that is a really good thing. Debating points of view are healthy and allow folks to challenge their own set of beliefs.

And if anyone knows me...I am a BYU honk. So I have no hate for the school.

I was just kinda caught off guard that some folks think that way. It shouldn't have shocked me, but it did.

[Pheidippides]

I can see the argument:

If Joseph Smith could have his leg operated on without the need of alcohol, then certainly 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart could go down on some crusty old dude without the need of it.

Perhaps these kids were just trolling? I really have a hard time thinking that even the most misogynistic-mullah-Mormon would think she could be punished by God for anything that went on during her 9-month captivity.

I don't. It mirrors my experience in my psych class on different issues. You should have been there to feel the fury when I suggested that medication can be an appropriate way to treat mental illness in many cases. Class opinion was that people should just deal with it.

I pretty sure that none of them had peeked in their parents medicine cabinet.