2024 Presidential Election Thread

[PaloAltoCougar]

Liz actively supported Trump in 2020. Campaigned for him. Mitt voted with Trump more than Mike Lee.

You and your lot can never square this circle because ultimately you and Liz and Mitt and all the other principled conservatives have actively looked the other way while the conservative movement was taken over by MAGA.

An alleged minority per you guys here. You aren’t being honest with yourself.

Can you point to a Romney vote that would have been different but for Trump's influence? Should Romney, or anyone, always vote against Trump's position on an issue if they would otherwise support it? I could imagine my voting for something I believed in, irrespective of Trump's support for it, even though it would evidently feed into your absurd belief I'm a big Trump fan (perhaps the zenith in dull-witted reasoning).

To your question in your follow-up post: I don't know--but to belabor my foregoing point, I don't think one should forsake a principled position just because His Orange Immenseness happens to support it as well. The best I've got is my belief that time will eventually bring more of the country around to an understanding that Trump is an unprincipled snake oil salesman who has (and would going forward) damage our institutions and global reputation, and that we can do better than that. I wish that shift would begin by the Dems appointing an intellectually vigorous nominee whose primary appeal is based on positions, character, and inspiring leadership skills, not simply "the other side is evil". Yeah, I'm prepared for disappointment.

[Applejack]

Can you point to a Romney vote that would have been different but for Trump's influence? Should Romney, or anyone, always vote against Trump's position on an issue if they would otherwise support it? I could imagine my voting for something I believed in, irrespective of Trump's support for it, even though it would evidently feed into your absurd belief I'm a big Trump fan (perhaps the zenith in dull-witted reasoning).

To your question in your follow-up post: I don't know--but to belabor my foregoing point, I don't think one should forsake a principled position just because His Orange Immenseness happens to support it as well. The best I've got is my belief that time will eventually bring more of the country around to an understanding that Trump is an unprincipled snake oil salesman who has (and would going forward) damage our institutions and global reputation, and that we can do better than that. I wish that shift would begin by the Dems appointing an intellectually vigorous nominee whose primary appeal is based on positions, character, and inspiring leadership skills, not simply "the other side is evil". Yeah, I'm prepared for disappointment.

While I share your wish for a vigorous democratic candidate to challenge Trump, I believe that for the Trump fever to break, it must come from the republican party. A large percentage of this country is bound to their party and will vote straight ticket, regardless of who the nominee is. That is why we have Trump--a known sexual predator and insurrectionist--leading the polls. Because so many in the country will point to the democrat and say, "I can't vote for him because of the economy (???), or the Biden crime family that has yet to be proven but is assuredly true, or because he's senile" or whatever made up excuse they want to rely on. The same thing would happen on the other side; imagine if Hunter Biden were running against Mitt--the hard core democrats would make up some crazy stuff about Mitt (other than the fact that he's a huge dork).

But IF Hunter Biden won, and totally rearranged the democratic party, subjecting everyone that disagrees with him to ouster and humilitation, the solution would have to come from within the democratic party, not from without. Christie/Haley/DeSantis were not the person to do it.

[USUC]

This convo goes nowhere, but I’m legitimately interested in what you guys think the solution should be?

The solution is Trump and a sizeable chunk of Boomers dying.

My preferred solution is that the GOP base suddenly take an interest in fiscal discipline and stopping governemnt overreach. But this is as realistic as your solution of convincing conservatives to give democrats a monopoly of power.

[Bo Diddley]

The solution is Trump and a sizeable chunk of Boomers dying.

My preferred solution is that the GOP base suddenly take an interest in fiscal discipline and stopping governemnt overreach. But this is as realistic as your solution of convincing conservatives to give democrats a monopoly of power.

It's interesting to me that voters tend to get more conservative as they age. So far, I'm the opposite.

[USUC]

It's interesting to me that voters tend to get more conservative as they age. So far, I'm the opposite.

What definition of "conservative" are you using? Trump republicanism/populism? Fiscal responsibility? Socially conservative?

[Bo Diddley]

What definition of "conservative" are you using? Trump republicanism/populism? Fiscal responsibility? Socially conservative?

I don't think I can give it that much fidelity, if at all. I suppose I may be parroting stuff that's been said by others without really digging into the truth of it.

Edit: According to this study they do, though perhaps not as much as some claim.

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/do...10.1086/706889

[USUC]

I don't think I can give it that much fidelity, if at all. I suppose I may be parroting stuff that's been said by others without really digging into the truth of it.

Edit: According to this study they do, though perhaps not as much as some claim.

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/do...10.1086/706889

I grew up in a farming community and the "liberals/democrats" I knew were typically blue collar union people (my uncle, my dad's best friend, public school teachers). Not exactly the big city Democrat of today, I'll admit. But the things I witnessed them becoming more conservative with in their old age was being more tough on crime, immigration, and maybe abortion (as pro life democrats became extinct). I noticed a shift for sure but I wonder how much of it is just "things we're better in my day and now the new generation is screwing things up?

[Bo Diddley]

I grew up in a farming community and the "liberals/democrats" I knew were typically blue collar union people (my uncle, my dad's best friend, public school teachers). Not exactly the big city Democrat of today, I'll admit. But the things I witnessed them becoming more conservative with in their old age was being more tough on crime, immigration, and maybe abortion (as pro life democrats became extinct). I noticed a shift for sure but I wonder how much of it is just "things we're better in my day and now the new generation is screwing things up?

There are certainly a myriad of reasons as each person will be a little different. My guess is down the road those who study such things will find that conservative talk shows, the Tea Party, and now the MAGA movement ensnared an oversized proportion of older people and radicalized them, pulling them farther to the right end of the spectrum. I can see that in my MIL, but not in my own parents.

[Northwestcoug]

It's interesting to me that voters tend to get more conservative as they age. So far, I'm the opposite.

Probably no surprise but I'm there with you. Mostly on social issues. Fiscal responsibility as a policy is a sham on both sides, but it's more glaring from the GOP since they whine about it all the time yet do nothing to address it. Since we're going to end up with a shload of debt with either party we might as well make it easier for those on the fringes of society to live.

It is interesting that the shift doesn't always happen. Grandparents on both sides lived through the great depression, and they were reliably democratic voters for life. My aunt started out democrat early in marriage but is full on Trump now. My mom and other siblings started out conservative and stayed so.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's interesting to me that voters tend to get more conservative as they age. So far, I'm the opposite.

I have quoted this before, but Winston Churchill said, "If you are young and conservative, you don't have a heart. If you are old and liberal, you don't have a brain."

I think there is some truth to that, assuming you don't confuse MAGA populism with traditional conservatism.

[Commando]

Not sure if it makes me brainless, but the older I get the less I feel like carrying water for a bunch of old out of touch rich farts who want to control every aspect of my life under a transparently bullshit guise of this fake moral high ground they've invented. Of all the fake moral high grounds to come around and foist up certain favorite causes, I'm not sure if Fake Christian or Fake Patriot is my least favorite...

[Bo Diddley]

Not sure if it makes me brainless, but the older I get the less I feel like carrying water for a bunch of old out of touch rich farts who want to control every aspect of my life under a transparently bullshit guise of this fake moral high ground they've invented. Of all the fake moral high grounds to come around and foist up certain favorite causes, I'm not sure if Fake Christian or Fake Patriot is my least favorite...

Ha! Yes.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Not sure if it makes me brainless, but the older I get the less I feel like carrying water for a bunch of old out of touch rich farts who want to control every aspect of my life under a transparently bullshit guise of this fake moral high ground they've invented. Of all the fake moral high grounds to come around and foist up certain favorite causes, I'm not sure if Fake Christian or Fake Patriot is my least favorite...

You seem confused.

[Maximus]

ah yes the traditional conservativism from old people who all vote maga?

[USUC]

Not sure if it makes me brainless, but the older I get the less I feel like carrying water for a bunch of old out of touch rich farts who want to control every aspect of my life under a transparently bullshit guise of this fake moral high ground they've invented. Of all the fake moral high grounds to come around and foist up certain favorite causes, I'm not sure if Fake Christian or Fake Patriot is my least favorite...

Secular nanny state vs religious nanny state. Your politics decide which one you think is preferable. The power of the secular nanny state far exceeds that of the social conservatives power. But yes, I do find the hypocrisy and ignorance of the religious right to be especially grating.