Roman Polanski Arrested

[Rosebud]

Let me ask the hardliners a question...

If you committed a serious crime in Istanbul, and were about to be thrown into a Turkish prison for ten years, and if you fully believed that while in prison there was a high probability of you getting raped, tortured and eventually murdered, and if you really knew that what you did was wrong, but it wasn't deserving of ten years of rape, torture and possibly murder, and if you were a citizen of a country that would not extradite you to Turkey because of the notoriety of the Turkish penal system, and if you had the chance to get back to your home country where you hoped you could negotiate terms of justice that did not involve a high probability of rape, torture and murder...

... would you flee Turkey, if you had the chance?

Yes. I'm human. Self-preservation is my strongest instinct. It is not impossible for me to set instinct aside for the good of others, however.

[Green Lantern]

Definitely photogravures, but made from photograph negatives. Apparently, at the time it was easier to mass produce photogravures than photographs. She published these in a volume in 1937 after her trip to Greece which figured so heavily in Olympia.

Here and here, and here are examples of Riefenstahl's Acropolis images. These are the three that I own.

This is one of my favorites: Jesse Owens.

Wow, those are seriously cool. Riefenstahl is definitely worthy of discussion one of these days. I have a DVD of TRIUMPH OF THE WILL and I can't get over how beautiful some of the imagery is, while at the same time constantly having to remind myself that this work of art was made in the service of Hitler's regime.

I could be wrong, but I think her OLYMPIA was released on DVD as part of the Criterion Collection. I've only seen bits and pieces but now I want to check it out.

[byu71]

Let me ask the hardliners a question...

If you committed a serious crime in Istanbul, and were about to be thrown into a Turkish prison for ten years, and if you fully believed that while in prison there was a high probability of you getting raped, tortured and eventually murdered, and if you really knew that what you did was wrong, but it wasn't deserving of ten years of rape, torture and possibly murder, and if you were a citizen of a country that would not extradite you to Turkey because of the notoriety of the Turkish penal system, and if you had the chance to get back to your home country where you hoped you could negotiate terms of justice that did not involve a high probability of rape, torture and murder...

... would you flee Turkey, if you had the chance?

Let me see. I raped a 13 year old. I don't think I would have any problem making a run for it. I don't think I have the "highest" of moral standards and conscience, do I?

Since I am a hardliner, I probably haven't done any great humanitarian thing or contributed anything to the "arts", so my guess is if I get caught, you will want me sent back to Turkey to face the music.

[Art Vandelay]

Let me see. I raped a 13 year old. I don't think I would have any problem making a run for it. I don't think I have the "highest" of moral standards and conscience, do I?

Since I am a hardliner, I probably haven't done any great humanitarian thing or contributed anything to the "arts", so my guess is if I get caught, you will want me sent back to Turkey to face the music.

This reminds me when my wife got mad at me. She asked me if I had an affair would I tell her. I told her if I was at a point in my life that I was willing to cheat on her than I likely wasn't going to be telling the truth about a lot of things. She was much more annoyed about the fact I would lie to her than the fact I had this fictitious affair.

On second thought this has nothing to do with Polanski and everything to do with me not understanding the female brain.

[Jarid in Cedar]

This reminds me when my wife got mad at me. She asked me if I had an affair would I tell her. I told her if I was at a point in my life that I was willing to cheat on her than I likely wasn't going to be telling the truth about a lot of things. She was much more annoyed about the fact I would lie to her than the fact I had this fictitious affair.

On second thought this has nothing to do with Polanski and everything to do with me not understanding the female brain.

Did you end up in the theoretical doghouse for failing her theoretical test? My wife got mad at me because she had a dream that I was cheating on her.

[byu71]

This reminds me when my wife got mad at me. She asked me if I had an affair would I tell her. I told her if I was at a point in my life that I was willing to cheat on her than I likely wasn't going to be telling the truth about a lot of things. She was much more annoyed about the fact I would lie to her than the fact I had this fictitious affair.

On second thought this has nothing to do with Polanski and everything to do with me not understanding the female brain.

LOL, she might be upset that she might not be able to catch you and then punish you.

Note: I honestly didn't mean that to be a sexist comment and I really doubt Art's comment was meant to be sexist.

[Art Vandelay]

Did you end up in the theoretical doghouse for failing her theoretical test? My wife got mad at me because she had a dream that I was cheating on her.

I don't recall all the fallout, but I'm pretty sure I was dumb enough to throw in a line like, "quit being stupid..." or something equally insulting to her feelings. All I know now is the subject is verboten from my standpoint, I refuse to deal with hypotheticals, especially when they involve me being a scumbag (perhaps it is too close to the truth).

My wife and I rarely argue, so I find these seemingly trivial disagreements amusing. Now my caffeine addiction may ultimately lead to my untimely homicide, but that is another story.

[RobinFinderson]

Let me see. I raped a 13 year old. I don't think I would have any problem making a run for it. I don't think I have the "highest" of moral standards and conscience, do I?

Since I am a hardliner, I probably haven't done any great humanitarian thing or contributed anything to the "arts", so my guess is if I get caught, you will want me sent back to Turkey to face the music.

I don't really care if Polanski is extradited or goes to jail. Maybe he can continue to make creative work in jail. I'm just trying to steer this thread toward something interesting. The righteous indignation expressed by some here is played out. So what is left to discuss in this thread that is still related, but interesting? Here are a few things:

1. The question of art. The Riefenstahl and Polanski question still has legs. Obviously individuals may refrain from examining the creative output of people whose behavior is viewed as reprehensible, but do we have an ethical obligation to avoid it?

2. The question of judging. Righteous indignation is easy enough, but is there a better, more Christian view of society's duty to protect the innocent from predatory behavior like that of Polanski? This gets back to the question of our penal system, and whether it should be essentially punitive or reformative in nature, and how a change of philosophical purpose toward a reformative system might better reflect the virtues we hope to define our national character.

3. The question of judging. Polanski has confessed to having sex with a girl who was two weeks away from being legally capable of consenting to that act. While the girl went on to claim that the sex was not consensual, and I should state for the record that I believe her, there has been no trial to establish the technical guilt of anything other than the confessed statutory rape. All of the other details fall into that category of personal judgment where we either choose to believe or not believe the unofficial testimony of the victim. So wuap believes Polanski's victim, and I believe Martha Beck, and wuap doesn't believe Mackenzie Phillips, and some of us think that Joseph Smith is guilty of coercing underage girls to have sex with him through the abuse of his status in the church. All of these personal beliefs are determined by individuals' reading of unofficial testimony. I don't mean to diminish the evil of taking sexual advantage of children, but it is interesting to note that the judgement of Polanski is based on the same category of judgment we have seen applied to Joseph Smith, Hugh Nibley, and John Phillips.

4. The problems of having a broken judicial and penal systems. This is a huge issue, one of the most pressing moral issues our country faces, but nobody really seems to care about it, because we are talking about the protection of criminals. Personally, I see this as a measure of how we care about the 'least among us.' When criminals are sentenced, they should be able to serve their time without any danger of brutality. At this time in our country's history, a jail sentence also subjects the guilty to unacceptable exposure and risk of horrific brutality.

[LA Ute]

Howard Kurtz:

If Polanski was an ordinary Roman, and not an award-winning film director, we wouldn’t be having this debate. There is sympathy for him because he’s considered a great artiste. The Hollywood elite wouldn’t give Polanski the plumber the time of day if he had sexually assaulted an underage girl. And that suggests to me a stunning double standard.

"Suggests?" Then there's this from Megan McArdle:

You would think we’d busted him for unpaid parking tickets. The guy drugged a thirteen year old girl in order to rape her. Perhaps the French have some sophisticated, European point of view on these things that I, with my puritan ancestry, simply cannot rise to.

And my personal favorite:

If his unspeakable deed doesn’t meet the standard, what exactly would Roman Polanski have to do in order to become a pariah in this town … I mean, besides vote for Sarah Palin?

[Green Lantern]

2. The question of judging. Righteous indignation is easy enough, but is there a better, more Christian view of society's duty to protect the innocent from predatory behavior like that of Polanski? This gets back to the question of our penal system, and whether it should be essentially punitive or reformative in nature, and how a change of philosophical purpose toward a reformative system might better reflect the virtues we hope to define our national character.

On this topic, here is an interesting opinion piece on whether the good of putting Polanski away outdoes the bad at this point. I thought these were some thoughts worthy of discussion: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/...ice/index.html

[byu71]

On this topic, here is an interesting opinion piece on whether the good of putting Polanski away outdoes the bad at this point. I thought these were some thoughts worthy of discussion: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/...ice/index.html

Mary Elizabeth brings up some good points to ponder. I wonder if we should ever put someone in jail who rapes. It is more important to be fair. Is it fair that because Polanski could escape to France he goes unpunished while some poor person does time because they couldn't run. Whether they put people away doesn't change what happened to the folks Mary Elizabeth knows.

Maybe rape, even of minors should be something we provide government counseling for, but certainly not jail time. What good does the jail time do.

[Green Lantern]

Mary Elizabeth brings up some good points to ponder. I wonder if we should ever put someone in jail who rapes. It is more important to be fair. Is it fair that because Polanski could escape to France he goes unpunished while some poor person does time because they couldn't run. Whether they put people away doesn't change what happened to the folks Mary Elizabeth knows.

Maybe rape, even of minors should be something we provide government counseling for, but certainly not jail time. What good does the jail time do.

Don't let your emotions and sarcasm overwhelm the potential for a real discussion.

[creekster]

On this topic, here is an interesting opinion piece on whether the good of putting Polanski away outdoes the bad at this point. I thought these were some thoughts worthy of discussion: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/...ice/index.html

I think that article is poorly reasoned. This is an instance of justice delayed being problmeatic. If he had been incarecarted at the timne, none of this would be an issue. Why wasnt he incarcerated then? Oh yes, becaseu he fled this coutnry. It is not the justice system that has failed the vicitm, it is Polanksi who raped her and Polanski who fled and polanksi who curries favor with his influential friends to raise the issue in the media that causes the victim discomfort. Put this on Polanski, not on the system.

[il Padrino Ute]

I think that article is poorly reasoned. This is an instance of justice delayed being problmeatic. If he had been incarecarted at the timne, none of this would be an issue. Why wasnt he incarcerated then? Oh yes, becaseu he fled this coutnry. It is not the justice system that has failed the vicitm, it is Polanksi who raped her and Polanski who fled and polanksi who curries favor with his influential friends to raise the issue in the media that causes the victim discomfort. Put this on Polanski, not on the system.

Well said. Polanski only has himself to blame for this.

[Green Lantern]

I think that article is poorly reasoned. This is an instance of justice delayed being problmeatic. If he had been incarecarted at the timne, none of this would be an issue. Why wasnt he incarcerated then? Oh yes, becaseu he fled this coutnry. It is not the justice system that has failed the vicitm, it is Polanksi who raped her and Polanski who fled and polanksi who curries favor with his influential friends to raise the issue in the media that causes the victim discomfort. Put this on Polanski, not on the system.

I think that's a valid point. The onus should definitely be upon Polanski. It's not the justice system's fault that he bolted. But I think the question raised is still an interesting one. How should be deal with it now in a way that does the most good and causes the least harm? I think there are good arguments to be made on all sides.