"Hold my root beer" - the Russell M. Nelson thread

[MartyFunkhouser]

And then bednar said don't question us.

Oaks took the next step and said don't question us when we are wrong.

[Goatnapper'96]

Oaks took the next step and said don't question us when we are wrong.

I think that is crux of the matter. It isn't so much about whether or not they are wrong but there is an expectation to still follow them even when you believe they are wrong.

[ScoopJahoop]

I agree that if someone bounces back and forth between those two paradigms, it would be confusing/problematic.

But that’s what the church asks me to do every Sunday. No, not asks. Commands.

[ScoopJahoop]

I think that is crux of the matter. It isn't so much about whether or not they are wrong but there is an expectation to still follow them even when you believe they are wrong.

Bingo
Forget about what the prophet said. That’s in the past. How do we know that’s what we should do? The prophet said so!

[Jarid in Cedar]

I always have thousands of thoughts about the issue of the infallibility of the church leaders running around in my head,but I have a hard time figuring out where to start. So here is a shot at it.

The original policy was definitely not inspired because it violated one of the driving forces of the gospel.

"Come unto me" Jesus pleads, and he rejoices with every action that brings a person closer to him. So the policy of blocking a child from baptism was blocking someone from an action that brought them closer to Christ.

With that in mind, it isn't much of a surprise that it was struck down so soon. Whether it was a softening of feeling or a direct rebuke from God is irrelevant, imo.

To me it is interesting that the issue with baptism is getting the most play, whereas, the fact that homosexuality is no longer considered an act of apostasy represents a seismic shift in current policy. And will likely have much bigger implications moving forward.

[wuapinmon]

But in general, no. The church doesn’t spend a great deal of time constantly pointing out how and when they screw up. Not sure I have ever seen an organization that does that.

I'd argue that the Church of JESUS CHRIST might could be a little different, even an example, vis a vis repenting and atoning for their mistakes.

[wuapinmon]

Our civilization has a unproductive pre-occupation with "apologies."

The central tenet of our faith is confession of sin, making amends, apologizing to God, and asking for forgiveness. Why would the same values not apply to the Church? The pride in that statement is in the person who thinks that someone who is hurt by one's actions is somehow at fault. It's a kind of victim blaming, and it's pretty much bullshit.

[Moliere]

I think that is crux of the matter. It isn't so much about whether or not they are wrong but there is an expectation to still follow them even when you believe they are wrong.

Yes, much better put than how I tried to say it. I’ve stopped following them when I think they are wrong but I’m quiet about it.

[Goatnapper'96]

The central tenet of our faith is confession of sin, making amends, apologizing to God, and asking for forgiveness. Why would the same values not apply to the Church? The pride in that statement is in the person who thinks that someone who is hurt by one's actions is somehow at fault. It's a kind of victim blaming, and it's pretty much bullshit.

I think the central tenet of repentance is change.

[Goatnapper'96]

Yes, much better put than how I tried to say it. I’ve stopped following them when I think they are wrong but I’m quiet about it.

That allows you to be faithful and still feel the SJW vibe and be a rockstar when your community demands. Red, gold and green....red, gold and greee-EEN!

Or perhaps you just have faith that in the long run it will all be taken care of and you are just allowing the simplistic old foggies to catch up to you...or perhaps you might even keep an idea in your head that maybe, just maybe you don't have it all as figured out as we would like to think we have.

[smokymountainrain]

I think the central tenet of repentance is change.

yet, they hammer home the importance of confession to bishop/SP in many cases. so while i agree that the central tenet is change, the church, in these cases claims that the process can't be complete without the confession to men.

[wuapinmon]

I think the central tenet of repentance is change.

I agree. I had "turning from sin" in my post, but erased it while editing it and forgot to put it back in.

[Moliere]

That allows you to be faithful and still feel the SJW vibe and be a rockstar when your community demands. Red, gold and green....red, gold and greee-EEN!

Or perhaps you just have faith that in the long run it will all be taken care of and you are just allowing the simplistic old foggies to catch up to you...or perhaps you might even keep an idea in your head that maybe, just maybe you don't have it all as figured out as we would like to think we have.

Honestly, I have no idea but I know I don’t have it figured out.

[clackamascoug]

I always have thousands of thoughts about the issue of the infallibility of the church leaders running around in my head,but I have a hard time figuring out where to start. So here is a shot at it.

The original policy was definitely not inspired because it violated one of the driving forces of the gospel.

"Come unto me" Jesus pleads, and he rejoices with every action that brings a person closer to him. So the policy of blocking a child from baptism was blocking someone from an action that brought them closer to Christ.

With that in mind, it isn't much of a surprise that it was struck down so soon. Whether it was a softening of feeling or a direct rebuke from God is irrelevant, imo.

To me it is interesting that the issue with baptism is getting the most play, whereas, the fact that homosexuality is no longer considered an act of apostasy represents a seismic shift in current policy. And will likely have much bigger implications moving forward.

Which is why it would be silly not to amend the WOW this conference as well. Changing a stance on same sex and then telling us there's still a hard line on hot drinks - seems counter productive.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

A post from a friend of friend on how the church could have responded in one of Clark’s other dimensions.

What They Could Have Said

Three and a half years ago, we implemented a policy regarding the LGBTQ members of our church and their children. In our Handbook of Instructions for ecclesiastical leaders, we stated that same sex couples are to be considered “apostate.” Historically, apostasy was defined as being “an enemy to God.” In the modern church, apostasy has been defined as “open, public, and repeated opposition to the church and its leaders.”

In the new policy, we recommended that disciplinary councils be convened for church members living in same sex relationships, with the potential outcome being excommunication from the church.

We went on to specify that children living with a parent who was in a same sex partnership would not be able to be baptized or confirmed, receive other church ordinances, attend the temple, or serve full-time missions until they reached the age of 18. We further imposed the condition that upon turning 18 they would be required to “specifically disavow the practice of same gender cohabitation and marriage” in order to become members of the church and enjoy the blessings inherent in church membership.

At that time, Elder Christofferson said of the policy change, “This is about family; this is about love and especially the love of the Savior and how He wants people to be helped and fed and lifted, and that’s the whole motivation that underlies our effort.”

On January 10, 2016, President Nelson declared:

“Filled with compassion for all, and especially for the children, we wrestled at length to understand the Lord’s will in this matter. Ever mindful of God’s plan of salvation and of His hope for eternal life for each of His children, we considered countless permutations and combinations of possible scenarios that could arise. We met repeatedly in the temple in fasting and prayer and sought further direction and inspiration.

“And then, when the Lord inspired His prophet, President Thomas S. Monson, to declare the mind of the Lord and the will of the Lord, each of us during that sacred moment felt a spiritual confirmation. It was our privilege as Apostles to sustain what had been revealed to President Monson.”

Over the course of the subsequent three and a half years, we have witnessed the effects of this policy in the lives of our LGBTQ members, their families, and other loved ones. We have read the accounts of the despair this has created -- even contributing in some tragic cases, to the devastating decision by some LGBTQ Latter-day Saints to end their lives.

We recognize that myriad factors are involved when it comes to suicide, including underlying depression and anxiety, possible alcohol or substance use, physical ailments, strained or distant family relationships, pervasive feelings of loneliness, rejection, and hopelessness.

We also recognize, because we have been listening, that a deep sense of shame and unworthiness stemmed from this policy and the majority of the church’s rhetoric which preceded it on the subjects of sexuality and gender identity. We now know that such feelings of shame and unworthiness can become the treacherous underpinnings of life-threatening despair.

We can no longer, in good conscience, continue to perpetuate the sense of shame and despair created and reinforced by our past policies, practices, and teachings.

Effective immediately, the policy change which first came to light on November 5th, 2015, has been revoked. No part of this policy will continue to be implemented.

We wish to express, unequivocally, that we were wrong and we are sorry.

We realize how woefully inadequate those words are in the wake of the unfathomable pain, grief, and loss which arose out of this policy, but we hope they can offer a meaningful place to start.

Our hearts go out, most of all, to the parents of the beloved LGBTQ Latter-day Saints whose lives were cut so tragically short. We are aware that nothing we could say would ever fully assuage your pain or atone for our past ignorance and misunderstanding when it comes to issues of sexuality and gender identity.

If you will allow us to, we would welcome the opportunity to sit down across from you face-to-face to hear your stories and bear witness to your pain. Our doors will remain open to you for as long as it takes to find some healing amidst the heartache. We hope you will continue to share your stories with us until we can begin to forge a new way forward, together.

We are learning as we go. We implore your patience as we seek to do so.

You are our teachers. Our hearts have been changed and will continue to change.

We believe a brighter, more inclusive tomorrow is in store for our church and its diverse membership across the globe.

We are invested in never returning to the limited understanding, bias, and faulty assumptions of the past.

We will be offering counseling services at no charge through all available mental health professionals in your area to any who may benefit from professional assistance in working through the pain left in the wake of this policy.

We will be donating a considerable amount of our time, financial means, and other resources to help create safe spaces for LGBTQ individuals throughout the world in the hopes that fewer and fewer of them are ever made to feel unwelcome in their homes, their places of worship, and their communities.

We invite other religious institutions to join us in creating welcoming spaces for all.

To our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, please forgive us. We have hurt you. We have wronged you. We recognize that any process of reconciliation and restitution will take time. There are no words adequate to address the anguish you have experienced. But we wish to say again, to each of you, we are sorry.

We hope we will have the opportunity to tell you that in person.

The halls of our meetinghouses and the pews of our chapels have been less vibrant without you there. We have missed your vital voices, your presence, your unique and varied perspectives. We hope you will come back and worship with us. And we will understand if you don’t. But we want you to know that you are welcome here.

You are beautiful sons and daughters of Heavenly Parents who love you unconditionally. We are so sorry we failed to see that before.

We see you now.

We love you. You are worthy. You are enough, exactly as you are.

We promise, above all else, to never forget that now.

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