Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[Jeff Lebowski]

Ceekster/JL, why do you think these accusations occur years and sometimes decades after the alleged misconduct occurs? It’s because of what I said.

(Swish placeholder here.)

Typical SU responses. Interpret everything as a swish!

Nobody is arguing that people in power do not have the ability/opportunity to abuse. In fact, that is why I am arguing that the punishment should be severe. It is a horrible abuse of power and trust.

You are implying that hierarchal organization are inherently bad due to cases like this. Nonsense.

[creekster]

Ceekster/JL, why do you think these accusations occur years and sometimes decades after the alleged misconduct occurs? It’s because of what I said.

(Swish placeholder here.)

Seriously? So where is the avalanche of similar claims from the 70s and 80s? It is not enough to simply say this stuff happens. Of course it happens. But does it happen at a surprising rate? You yourself are surprised that it isn't more frequently announced. You get no swish now or later.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I understand your point and largely agree with it. While he was a private hypocrite (and all of us are to some extent) he was not publicly opposing Church policy or doctrine.

The question was whether or not his actions lead to apostasy. Whether he meant for that to happen or not seems irrelevant. Any reasonable person would know that actions like that would destroy lives and testimonies.

[MartyFunkhouser]

What I mean is I don't think what Bishop was doing is the same thing as preaching false doctrines. Seems obvious to me, but maybe I'm the only one that sees it that way.

Look, I've dug my heals in on some odd points (sometimes under the influence), but I'm not sure I've ever picked a more bizarre battle to fight than this one.

[SeattleUte]

Seriously? So where is the avalanche of similar claims from the 70s and 80s? It is not enough to simply say this stuff happens. Of course it happens. But does it happen at a surprising rate? You yourself are surprised that it isn't more frequently announced. You get no swish now or later.

The LDS Church tends to be a laggard about everything.

[falafel]

The question was whether or not his actions lead to apostasy. Whether he meant for that to happen or not seems irrelevant. Any reasonable person would know that actions like that would destroy lives and testimonies.

Well, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was trying to make a distinction between intentionally leading people out of the church vs. taking actions that have a secondary impact that results in people leaving the church. Call me crazy, but I doubt Bishop was raping people to push them out of the church. Its not an insignificant distinction, at least for me.

[MartyFunkhouser]

As usual, you carry a huge load of biases and foregone conclusions to the debate.

I spend a lot of my time as an ecclesiastical leader teaching young women to be assertive and to protect themselves against predators and build confidence. And counseling young men to respect and honor boundaries. I have never once done anything inappropriate in my position. The vast majority of these "revered and powerful clerics" are an overwhelming positive and stabilizing influence on young men and women, your deep cynicism notwithstanding.

I wish that you were the rule on this not the exception. Good job for doing that. It should be a mandatory part of freshman orientation at BYU (and well every school) that students should be taught boundary setting, respecting boundaries, and consent.

[falafel]

Look, I've dug my heals in on some odd points (sometimes under the influence), but I'm not sure I've ever picked a more bizarre battle to fight than this one.

I don't feel like I'm fighting a battle here. I thought I was just having a conversation. I'm willing to die for this point or anything.

And pretty sure you've dug in on something more bizarre than this. Statistically speaking the odds are in favor of that.

[creekster]

The question was whether or not his actions lead to apostasy. Whether he meant for that to happen or not seems irrelevant. Any reasonable person would know that actions like that would destroy lives and testimonies.

It is not the same thing. A kid walking on on a dad who is a bishop having an affair would also be likely to have his testimony damaged, but that is not the same as telling people to be a snufferite.

That said, I think there is a clear connection between this guy's role as a leader and his behavior drawing shame on the church. Particularly here as the president of the MTC. It is mind boggling what he admitted doing, let alone what he is accused of doing. Even under Santos' dichotomy, I think he is excommunicable (is that a word?) on that basis.

And, to be clear, I just can't imagine how this guy is not excommunicated.

[creekster]

The LDS Church tends to be a laggard about everything.

That is very weak, and you know it. It is just an admission of the absence of evidence, which proves nothing.

[creekster]

Call me crazy, but I doubt Bishop was raping people to push them out of the church. Its not an insignificant distinction, at least for me.

To the contrary. One of the most bizarre things about the transcript, for me, was when he urged her to have faith and to come back to the church.

[Green Monstah]

Another twist. https://twitter.com/jonesnews/status/976647088984346624

She accused him of actual rape in the BYU police report. Why is Provo City Policy saying statute of limitations ran out?

The only difference between that account and the transcript is that she explains there was penetration.

[jay santos]

The only difference between that account and the transcript is that she explains there was penetration.

That's a big difference.

[smokymountainrain]

The question was whether or not his actions lead to apostasy. Whether he meant for that to happen or not seems irrelevant. Any reasonable person would know that actions like that would destroy lives and testimonies.

loving some of bishop lebowski's points in this thread.

[Green Monstah]

Most of us are Mormon. And so if we would be shocked at how often it's happened among your friends and family, wouldn't that imply that your friends and family are an anomaly.

It could be used to support that premise. It could also support the premise that it's not as anomalous as you think, you just might not know about it.

Sadly, if we learned anything from the #metoo movement, it's that sexual assault in the general population is more common than we previously thought. I tend to think the same is true inside the Church, but my experience may cause me to be biased.