Question for believers

[taekwondave]

My point again... and has been for a long time. We're here on Earth not to prove our worthiness, but to prove we're a good team player. God wants a nice locker room with good chemistry, and he doesn't want a bunch of emotional vampires sucking the fun out of the Celestial Kingdom. Being pleasant and getting along with others are weighted heavily on the final exam. Who wants to go on a long road trip with a guy who's a constant pain in the ass... Not God!

Haha, I like that. Is that really what you think though or do you just say it because it's a bit charming? (I may end up ripping it off for just that reason, actually. I need all the help being charming that I can get.)

[smokymountainrain]

You just threw back out the word "true." Right after saying you didn't care whether it was true or not because it made you happy. Which is a position I can respect, but the moment you say "true principles" it kind of brings us back to the same question: how to know they're true.

I don't care if the church is true. I care that it teaches true principles and it does. how do I know? through experience.

[taekwondave]

I don't care if the church is true. I care that it teaches true principle and it does. how to I know? through experience.

What kind of experience? And do these true principles include things that they've taught above and beyond things like "love your neighbor" and "dont' lie, cheat, steal, drink, smoke or fuck your neighbor's wife"? Like are there any true principles that Mormonism teaches, in your opinion, that are unique to Mormonism? Because if not then would you say you just stay at that church because you were raised in it and since it's as good as any and thus there's no point in leaving? Or is there some reason more that you stay there other than simple habit and familiarity? Or do you dabble in other faiths?

[smokymountainrain]

What kind of experience?

my life.

would something else work? perhaps. but no need to experiment at this point.

[taekwondave]

my life.

would something else work? perhaps. but no need to experiment at this point.

Gotcha. It doesn't solve MY problem, but it's a worthy perspective, I think. I actually approached it that way for a while myself. I see nothing wrong with it per se, but once I no longer thought it mattered which church I belonged to I began looking at the actions the LDS church took with a bit more critical eye and I did start to ask myself if remaining a part of it was appropriate, if in fact God didn't exist and it was just a pretty good system set up by other fallible dudes like myself. If they were going to teach things I didn't believe in and take actions against people in a way I disagreed with and it wasn't essential to my salvation (because salvation isn't actually a thing) then I also saw no real need to stay.

I guess what I'm saying is if the church isn't true (the way the church says it's true--not nuanced folks like yourself), then I would need it to behave a lot better than it does right now in order for me to go back to it. I would actually like that very much too, given as I still live here in Utah and still root for the Holy BYU Cougars and still want as many opportunities to congregate with and connect with my neighbors as possible. I just...can't right now. Not with the way it thinks about certain things and treats certain people. No, I would need it to be very, very true in order to overlook all of that.

[Bo Diddley]

I don't have to reconcile my faith against what other people do in their pursuit of truth. My pursuit is very personal to me. The spiritual manifestations have enriched my life, and I really don't have a need to justify my beliefs to others.

Because if feel that my personal beliefs are so sacred and personal, I feel that way about how others believe and explore their faith. An honest seeker of truth's pursuit of faith is sacred ground.

[taekwondave]

I don't have to reconcile my faith against what other people do in their pursuit of truth. My pursuit is very personal to me. The spiritual manifestations have enriched my life, and I really don't have a need to justify my beliefs to others.

Because if feel that my personal beliefs are so sacred and personal, I feel that way about how others believe and explore their faith. An honest seeker of truth's pursuit of faith is sacred ground.

I suppose nobody does. And I would say they have enriched mine as well. But your last line troubles me. Shouldn't an honest seeker of truth be seeking truth? Why would an honest seeker of truth seek faith? It seems if you're seeking faith you've already made up your mind about what you want to believe, and now you're just looking for evidence to confirm it. A seeker of truth, it seems to me, wouldn't do that.

[Pelado]

If you believe the church is true because you have prayed and received a spiritual confirmation that it's true, how do you reconcile the fact that members of other churches pray to know if their churches are true and receive spiritual confirmation that they are as well?

I will echo the others here in that I've never heard people who attend other churches talk about praying to find out if their church was true. I'm not sure how I would even bring that up in a conversation. "Love the pulled pork, Jack. By the way, what answer did you get when you prayed about whether or not the JW's are the one and only true church?"

I did ask someone the other day how they decided on the church they attend. The response had nothing to do with prayer or "truth".

I remember receiving what I felt was a confirmation that the BOM was true and that JS was a prophet, but I don't remember specifically asking if the church was true. It seemed self-evident at the time that if the BOM was true and JS was a prophet, then of course the church was true.

I also remember a specific investigator down in Argentina. We had several discussions with her. She said if she felt confirmation of the BOM being true that she would commit to baptism. She reported that she had prayed about the veracity of the BOM on several occasions during the time we worked with her. In spite of her multiple requests, she never did feel that she got an affirmative response to her supplications. I did not doubt her sincerity of purpose or her lack of response. She seemed that she really wanted to believe and was disappointed in not getting the answer we said she would get.

[Bo Diddley]

I suppose nobody does. And I would say they have enriched mine as well. But your last line troubles me. Shouldn't an honest seeker of truth be seeking truth? Why would an honest seeker of truth seek faith? It seems if you're seeking faith you've already made up your mind about what you want to believe, and now you're just looking for evidence to confirm it. A seeker of truth, it seems to me, wouldn't do that.

Don't get wrapped around the axle over it. I meant it in a general sense: faith, truth, spiritual journey, etc.

[taekwondave]

I will echo the others here in that I've never heard people who attend other churches talk about praying to find out if their church was true. I'm not sure how I would even bring that up in a conversation. "Love the pulled pork, Jack. By the way, what answer did you get when you prayed about whether or not the JW's are the one and only true church?"

I did ask someone the other day how they decided on the church they attend. The response had nothing to do with prayer or "truth".

I remember receiving what I felt was a confirmation that the BOM was true and that JS was a prophet, but I don't remember specifically asking if the church was true. It seemed self-evident at the time that if the BOM was true and JS was a prophet, then of course the church was true.

I also remember a specific investigator down in Argentina. We had several discussions with her. She said if she felt confirmation of the BOM being true that she would commit to baptism. She reported that she had prayed about the veracity of the BOM on several occasions during the time we worked with her. In spite of her multiple requests, she never did feel that she got an affirmative response to her supplications. I did not doubt her sincerity of purpose or her lack of response. She seemed that she really wanted to believe and was disappointed in not getting the answer we said she would get.

Yeah I actually accounted for that presumption in my question. I also thought, for a very long time, that was unique to Mormonism. I found out otherwise though. I could post a video demonstrating that, but I already told someone else I wouldn't, as I wasn't here to change your mind on this topic, just to see if anyone had a perspective that might adjust mine. If you'd like me to share that video with you, feel free to PM me.

[taekwondave]

Don't get wrapped around the axle over it. I meant it in a general sense: faith, truth, spiritual journey, etc.

So, what makes beliefs sacred? I get that they're personal, but what's the point of even saying that? I mean, if you ARE an honest seeker of truth, what kind of things do you DO that indicates that? What does an honest seeker of truth DO in your mind? And if you didn't want to explain yourself, why did you enter this discussion?

[Pelado]

Yeah I actually accounted for that presumption in my question. I also thought, for a very long time, that was unique to Mormonism. I found out otherwise though. I could post a video demonstrating that, but I already told someone else I wouldn't, as I wasn't here to change your mind on this topic, just to see if anyone had a perspective that might adjust mine. If you'd like me to share that video with you, feel free to PM me.

You don't have to prove their existence now herewith. I wasn't doubting your assertion(s), only mentioning my experience.

[Bo Diddley]

So, what makes beliefs sacred? I get that they're personal, but what's the point of even saying that? I mean, if you ARE an honest seeker of truth, what kind of things do you DO that indicates that? What does an honest seeker of truth DO in your mind? And if you didn't want to explain yourself, why did you enter this discussion?

I thought I did.

[SoCalCoug]

For about a year, I prayed sincerely and earnestly, to know the truth about Joseph Smith and the church, willing to accept wherever that led me.

It led me to conclude the church is no more true than any other religion.

I'm sure most (if not all) of the true believing Mormons doubt my sincerity.

And that's where we are. I don't think a rational discussion can be had here or really anywhere else about religion. Because of faith.

[Bo Diddley]

For about a year, I prayed sincerely and earnestly, to know the truth about Joseph Smith and the church, willing to accept wherever that led me.

It led me to conclude the church is no more true than any other religion.

I'm sure most (if not all) of the true believing Mormons doubt my sincerity.

And that's where we are. I don't think a rational discussion can be had here or really anywhere else about religion. Because of faith.

That's seems a little out there to me. As one of them, why would I doubt your sincerity?