Polygamy justification?

[byu71]

My dads comment was "I don't understand polygamy because I don't know why anyone would want to double or triple the misery in their lives."

That is because you, me and your Dad think of women in terms of todays woman. Just look at the gals in the FLDS. They appear to be completely obedient and compliant. Much like the Taliban women. The men in those cirumstances do not have nagging wives.

[Pheidippides]

I heard an interview with Todd Compton once (on mormonstories, maybe?). Really smart and interesting guy. I really need to get around to reading this some time. My MIL still insists that none of these other marriages were consummated. I guess she may be right, but I remember Compton specifically refuting that in the interview.

Based on what I recall, I think there's a question about whether some of them were consummated, but the prevailing view is that at least a few of them were.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I heard an interview with Todd Compton once (on mormonstories, maybe?). Really smart and interesting guy. I really need to get around to reading this some time. My MIL still insists that none of these other marriages were consummated. I guess she may be right, but I remember Compton specifically refuting that in the interview.

Your MIL is definitely wrong on that one. I would definitely read the book, it will open this world up to you in their words and motivations.

[scottie]

I heard an interview with Todd Compton once (on mormonstories, maybe?). Really smart and interesting guy. I really need to get around to reading this some time. My MIL still insists that none of these other marriages were consummated. I guess she may be right, but I remember Compton specifically refuting that in the interview.

If I have time tonight I'll look up the reference and post here, but in the new JS Papers, Journals, V.1 (it's LDS Church approved, for those who don't know about it), there's commentary written in one section talking about JS's plural wives, and it reads something like, "evidence indicates the relationships were consummated." IMO, if the Brethren gave their blessing on that publication and they allowed that to be printed, there is no doubt strong evidence to disprove your MIL's belief. Did your MIL pray about it or something?

[TripletDaddy]

If you want to read a great book on the topic:

In Sacred Silence: The plural wives of Joseph Smith

Mostly journal entries by/about these women. It is a thick read, but worth the effort.

I believe it is called In Sacred Loneliness.

You are right, though. good book.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I have been thinking about this thread and the reasons why people need the justifications in the first place. To me, when people are looking for justification, they are feeling dissonance between what has happened and what they feel/think about it. With regards to polygamy, many feel/think that it is reprehensible and a little creepy which collides with their church beliefs in one way of the other. They then need the justification to soothe that dissonance.

So for ERCoug's MIL, the rationalization that the marriages were not consummated makes it ok for her to believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet, and still feel that polygamy is wrong.

Any thoughts?

[Jarid in Cedar]

I believe it is called In Sacred Loneliness.

You are right, though. good book.

I stand corrected.

[jay santos]

I have been thinking about this thread and the reasons why people need the justifications in the first place. To me, when people are looking for justification, they are feeling dissonance between what has happened and what they feel/think about it. With regards to polygamy, many feel/think that it is reprehensible and a little creepy which collides with their church beliefs in one way of the other. They then need the justification to soothe that dissonance.

So for ERCoug's MIL, the rationalization that the marriages were not consummated makes it ok for her to believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet, and still feel that polygamy is wrong.

Any thoughts?

I wonder about why so many LDS would like to believe that Joseph never consummated any of those marriages. I used to want to believe that. I seem to recall being taught that, but I'm not sure. I just always grew up assuming they were spiritual not physical. A lot of people (like me) seem to react at first defending Joseph and claiming there was no sex, then upon being faced with facts move the position to "well it doesn't matter anyway, and of course it's normal for there to be sex in any marriage". I wonder why that first position is so important for so many.

[Jarid in Cedar]

If I have time tonight I'll look up the reference and post here, but in the new JS Papers, Journals, V.1 (it's LDS Church approved, for those who don't know about it), there's commentary written in one section talking about JS's plural wives, and it reads something like, "evidence indicates the relationships were consummated." IMO, if the Brethren gave their blessing on that publication and they allowed that to be printed, there is no doubt strong evidence to disprove your MIL's belief. Did your MIL pray about it or something?

The FLDS was the group that tried to propogate the "not consummated" line of thinking. They tried to propel the notion that Brigham Young was the one that started polygamy and JS was not involved. They were attempting to show that Brigham's group had broken from the true church, and that JS III was the true living prophet. The LDS church went through great pains in the 1880-1900ish period gathering as much evidence to show that Joseph did actually have plural wives and that they were "Man and wife in every deed"

[ERCougar]

If I have time tonight I'll look up the reference and post here, but in the new JS Papers, Journals, V.1 (it's LDS Church approved, for those who don't know about it), there's commentary written in one section talking about JS's plural wives, and it reads something like, "evidence indicates the relationships were consummated." IMO, if the Brethren gave their blessing on that publication and they allowed that to be printed, there is no doubt strong evidence to disprove your MIL's belief. Did your MIL pray about it or something?

1) She's completely irrational about things like this
2) She claims that the documentary on JS that's been on scattered Sunday nights made that point. I don't believe her but I didn't see the particular program she is referring to.

[byu71]

I wonder about why so many LDS would like to believe that Joseph never consummated any of those marriages. I used to want to believe that. I seem to recall being taught that, but I'm not sure. I just always grew up assuming they were spiritual not physical. A lot of people (like me) seem to react at first defending Joseph and claiming there was no sex, then upon being faced with facts move the position to "well it doesn't matter anyway, and of course it's normal for there to be sex in any marriage". I wonder why that first position is so important for so many.

Well, I think it can be a difficult dilema to resolve. AS a young person you are taught over and over again about the taboo's of sex. Save yourself for your spouse. Until a girl in your ward gets pregnant our of wedlock, the whole ward reinforces the idea unmarried girls who have sex are trasha and sluts. Prior probably to the 80's, common Mormon theology was sex was only for procreation.

Given all that, you lay on the idea the Prophet, the most righteous man outside of Christ. The man who will get you into heaven. This man was not only having sex, but it could be called recreational sex. Now that can be tough to resolve.

[ERCougar]

The FLDS was the group that tried to propogate the "not consummated" line of thinking. They tried to propel the notion that Brigham Young was the one that started polygamy and JS was not involved. They were attempting to show that Brigham's group had broken from the true church, and that JS III was the true living prophet.

They actually sent JSIII to SLC many years after to try to obtain testimony to the contrary, i.e. that these were spiritual marriages only. This left us with a bunch of signed affidavits on JS's sexual activities. Of course, one might say that these affidavits were exaggerated in order to justify BY's polygamy and therefore strengthen the church against a perceived enemy. But I doubt it. It leaves people like my MIL in the awkward position of either calling early Mormon figures liars or admitting JS consummated multiple marriages.

[Jarid in Cedar]

They actually sent JSIII to SLC many years after to try to obtain testimony to the contrary, i.e. that these were spiritual marriages only. This left us with a bunch of signed affidavits on JS's sexual activities. Of course, one might say that these affidavits were exaggerated in order to justify BY's polygamy and therefore strengthen the church against a perceived enemy. But I doubt it. It leaves people like my MIL in the awkward position of either calling early Mormon figures liars or admitting JS consummated multiple marriages.

Also known as a conundrum

[Mormon Red Death]

I wonder about why so many LDS would like to believe that Joseph never consummated any of those marriages. I used to want to believe that. I seem to recall being taught that, but I'm not sure. I just always grew up assuming they were spiritual not physical. A lot of people (like me) seem to react at first defending Joseph and claiming there was no sex, then upon being faced with facts move the position to "well it doesn't matter anyway, and of course it's normal for there to be sex in any marriage". I wonder why that first position is so important for so many.

The elephant in the room is that there are no "recorded" children from those unions.

please note that I believe he consumated his marriages

[I.J. Reilly]

The FLDS was the group that tried to propogate the "not consummated" line of thinking. They tried to propel the notion that Brigham Young was the one that started polygamy and JS was not involved. They were attempting to show that Brigham's group had broken from the true church, and that JS III was the true living prophet. The LDS church went through great pains in the 1880-1900ish period gathering as much evidence to show that Joseph did actually have plural wives and that they were "Man and wife in every deed"

I believe you mean RLDS, now known as the Community of Christ. The FLDS, I'm pretty sure, would want JS to have been as involved as he was or more.