Polygamy justification?

[jay santos]

The elephant in the room is that there are no "recorded" children from those unions.

please note that I believe he consumated his marriages

I guess I'm dense, but I don't know what you're insinuating.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I believe you mean RLDS, now known as the Community of Christ. The FLDS, I'm pretty sure, would want JS to have been as involved as he was or more.

Again, I stand corrected. I am having a bad acronym day

[ERCougar]

The elephant in the room is that there are no "recorded" children from those unions.

please note that I believe he consumated his marriages

This is actually a point my MIL has made in our discussions. She points out that every claimed of descendancy of JS through one of these unions has been disproven through DNA evidence.

I'm not sure what that shows.

[Jarid in Cedar]

This is actually a point my MIL has made in our discussions. She points out that every claimed of descendancy of JS through one of these unions has been disproven through DNA evidence.

I'm not sure what that shows.

It shows that "his boys couldn't swim"

[UtahDan]

The elephant in the room is that there are no "recorded" children from those unions.

please note that I believe he consumated his marriages

There is at least one woman who claims that on her mother's death bed she told her she was the offspring of Joseph Smith, so far as I know that has not been corroborated with DNA evidence (maybe because she has no living descendants) but there are (according to that same Compton interview referenced above) several others who have claimed that lineage and had that claim disproved by DNA evidence.

The thing that is most persuasive to me are the affidavits his former wives signed saying that the marriages were in fact consummated. These were created at the behest of the first presidency, is my understanding, to counter the claims of RLDS missionaries, including Joseph Smith, III, who came to Salt Lake in the 1880s claiming that Joseph had not in fact engaged in polygamy and that none of the marriages had been consummated. Compton even references an alleged statement by Eliza R. Snow who, when it was suggested to her that her marriage had never been consummated, said "I thought you knew brother Joseph better than that."

That assertion from the mouth of an enemy is one thing, but from the mouths of the wives at the behest of church leadership is nearly bullet proof, well, proof.

The real question is why would he not consummate those marriages? There is nothing in the record which suggests that he didn't or that there was a doctrinal reason he would not. Absence of such evidence is not proof of absence, but it is some evidence of it (contrary to the old saw).

[UtahDan]

There is at least one woman who claims that on her mother's death bed she told her she was the offspring of Joseph Smith, so far as I know that has not been corroborated with DNA evidence (maybe because she has no living descendants) but there are (according to that same Compton referenced above) several others who have claimed that lineage and had that claim disproved by DNA evidence.

The thing that is most persuasive to me are the affidavits his former wives signed saying that the marriages were in fact consummated. These were created at the behest of the first presidency, is my understanding, to counter the claims of RLDS missionaries, including Joseph Smith, III, who came to Salt Lake in the 1880s claiming that Joseph had not in fact engaged in polygamy and that none of the marriages had been consummated. Compton even references an alleged statement by Eliza R. Snow who, when it was suggested to her that her marriage had never been consummated, said "I thought you knew brother Joseph better than that."

That assertion from the mouth of an enemy is one thing, but from the mouths of the wives at the behest of church leadership is nearly bullet proof, well, proof.

The real question is why would he not consummate those marriages? There is nothing in the record which suggests that he didn't or that there was a doctrinal reason he would not. Absence of such evidence is not proof of absence, but it is some evidence of it (contrary to the old saw).

EDIT: I see that Jarid pointed much of this out, sorry to be a hack.

[ERCougar]

EDIT: I see that Jarid pointed much of this out, sorry to be a hack.

Not at all. I especially liked the Eliza R Snow quote.

There is a little (very little) hole in the argument though. You mentioned these affidavits were given at the behest of church leaders. I would think the opposite would be true. JS III was at least indirectly attacking the polygamous practice of the then-president of the Church.

[UtahDan]

Not at all. I especially liked the Eliza R Snow quote.

There is a little (very little) hole in the argument though. You mentioned these affidavits were given at the behest of church leaders. I would think the opposite would be true. JS III was at least indirectly attacking the polygamous practice of the then-president of the Church.

IOW, there was an incentive for these women not to be truthful or at least there was pressure on them to say the right thing. There is certainly something to that.

If that were true, and Joseph did not consummate any marriage except to Emma, then one would have to believe that the others simply went way beyond what Joseph had taught in this regard after he was gone. I would like to know, and don't recall, if any polygamist children were produced by anyone in the church during his lifetime.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Not at all. I especially liked the Eliza R Snow quote.

There is a little (very little) hole in the argument though. You mentioned these affidavits were given at the behest of church leaders. I would think the opposite would be true. JS III was at least indirectly attacking the polygamous practice of the then-president of the Church.

Eliza Snow addresses her meeting with JS III in the book we previously discussed as did several other wives. These accounts came from their own journals so I don't think that those journal entries were at the behest of the church. The church did get those afidavits, but there is other evidence with JS III's visits being at the forefront IMO.

[Jeff Lebowski]

One of my ancestors (Caroline Partridge) was one of Joseph's wives. She was a teenager as I recall, living with Joseph and Emma along with her sister Eliza after their father (Edward) died. Family lore tells that she swore that she "was a wife in every way".

[The_Tick]

I am not for polygamy...

Why would I want to disappoint more than one woman?

[myboynoah]

I am not for polygamy...

Why would I want to disappoint more than one woman?

Yeah, they'd all be snickering behind your back. Only the most confident of men would engage in this holy practice.

[SteelBlue]

I wish CJF would join in this thread. He has particularly illuminating insights into some of these questions.

[myboynoah]

I wish CJF would join in this thread. He has particularly illuminating insights into some of these questions.

I was thinking the same thing. He could put some of this to bed right away.

[UtahDan]

Back on consummation of marriages, a couple of things I have picked up trying to figure out whether polygamist children were produced in Nauvoo. There are some official sources that say Brigham Young sired the first child of polygamy and that this child was born in 1845. However, there are other sources that say the first child of polygamy was George Omner Noble, who was the child of Joseph Noble and polygamist wife Sarah B. Alley, born in Nauvoo on Feb. 2, 1844. Family search seems to confirm that (FWIW).

This would mean he was conceived a good month before Joseph was killed. Nothing conclusive there, but I have been thinking that if the polygamist wives taken during that period were uniformly conceiving children or not conceiving children, it would be some evidence of whether Joseph was endeavoring to do the same, or not.