Polygamy justification?

[Indy Coug]

Back on consummation of marriages, a couple of things I have picked up trying to figure out whether polygamist children were produced in Nauvoo. There are some official sources that say Brigham Young sired the first child of polygamy and that this child was born in 1845. However, there are other sources that say the first child of polygamy was George Omner Noble, who was the child of Joseph Noble and polygamist wife Sarah B. Alley, born in Nauvoo on Feb. 2, 1844. Family search seems to confirm that (FWIW).

This would mean he was conceived a good month before Joseph was killed. Nothing conclusive there, but I have been thinking that if the polygamist wives taken during that period were uniformly conceiving children or not conceiving children, it would be some evidence of whether Joseph was endeavoring to do the same, or not.

Considering the prodigious rate at which Emma conceived and the complete dearth of solid evidence that Joseph sired any children from other relationships leads me to believe he either wasn't real active on that front or he was extremely careful.

[UtahDan]

Considering the prodigious rate at which Emma conceived and the complete dearth of solid evidence that Joseph sired any children from other relationships leads me to believe he either wasn't real active on that front or he was extremely careful.

I agree that this is the best piece of evidence that has was, as you say, not real active or very careful. I'm interested to take this another direction though.

It seems to me like critics are very eager to believe that these unions were consummated and apologists are often at pains to prove, at a minimum, that this is unknowable, but why have the respective interests here staked out these particular position. What about Joseph having sex with his wives changes anything for a member? How does it give ammo to the skeptic? Maybe I have missed something obvious. To me it is just fun to conjecture about because it isn't knowable, until some DNA proven descendant shows up, and there is evidence to support both positions.

[wuapinmon]

I agree that this is the best piece of evidence that has was, as you say, not real active or very careful. I'm interested to take this another direction though.

It seems to me like critics are very eager to believe that these unions were consummated and apologists are often at pains to prove, at a minimum, that this is unknowable, but why have the respective interests here staked out these particular position. What about Joseph having sex with his wives changes anything for a member? How does it give ammo to the skeptic? Maybe I have missed something obvious. To me it is just fun to conjecture about because it isn't knowable, until some DNA proven descendant shows up, and there is evidence to support both positions.

Well, I think the problem is that the claim has been made that he was the celestial husband of these women, even though they were married temporally to their husbands. I think the average person hears that and says, that's fine, but if they have sex, that's polyandry, which isn't kosher....and I know that if Joseph Smith or anyone in authority, without telling me, convinced Mrs. wuapinmon to marry him and engage in that behavior or anything other than a handshake, I'd be furious to the point of not knowing what I would do to the person. And the "without telling me" doesn't mean I'd be cool with it if they told me....I'm just saying that that's one of the accusations made against José Esmit.

Having sex with someone else's wife, no matter what D&C says in support of any such practice, is wrong....no way the Lord was on board with that....if the accusations are true....which I do not know.......but I do know that the man could be petty and had a temper.....that's in the Church History.....there's something in there about a city council meeting where Joseph got pissed at someone, wrote down a "revelation" from the Lord, wadded it up and tossed it at someone, wherein it said that that person should stop arguing with Joseph Smith or something along those lines.

Do I believe the accusations about him....I don't know....but I don't dismiss them just because he was a prophet......he's on record as having pissed off God by asking for something repeatedly. Maybe polygamy was a sexual 118 pages.

[All-American]

I don't know that I'd call any of the following "justification," but polygamy did have some interesting effects, not all of which were negative. For one, single women in territorial Utah were well taken care of. Conditions for women on the fringe of society in that age were quite poor; those who couldn't get low paying jobs cooking, cleaning, et cetera were often driven to prostitution. That didn't happen in Utah. The divorce rate, interestingly enough, was somewhat higher in Utah than in surrounding areas. There was also a very strong sorority that built up between polygamous wives, and they valued that connection very much. The US government supported the extension to Utah women of the right to vote, thinking that they would vote to kill the barbaric system that so reduced their status. The women of Utah instead tended to vote overwhelmingly for measures that would sustain the practice, such that one of the steps the US government took in the Edmunds-Tucker Act was to revoke the vote of Mormon women.

[ERCougar]

Well, I think the problem is that the claim has been made that he was the celestial husband of these women, even though they were married temporally to their husbands. I think the average person hears that and says, that's fine, but if they have sex, that's polyandry, which isn't kosher....and I know that if Joseph Smith or anyone in authority, without telling me, convinced Mrs. wuapinmon to marry him and engage in that behavior or anything other than a handshake, I'd be furious to the point of not knowing what I would do to the person. And the "without telling me" doesn't mean I'd be cool with it if they told me....I'm just saying that that's one of the accusations made against José Esmit.

Having sex with someone else's wife, no matter what D&C says in support of any such practice, is wrong....no way the Lord was on board with that....if the accusations are true....which I do not know.......but I do know that the man could be petty and had a temper.....that's in the Church History.....there's something in there about a city council meeting where Joseph got pissed at someone, wrote down a "revelation" from the Lord, wadded it up and tossed it at someone, wherein it said that that person should stop arguing with Joseph Smith or something along those lines.

Do I believe the accusations about him....I don't know....but I don't dismiss them just because he was a prophet......he's on record as having pissed off God by asking for something repeatedly. Maybe polygamy was a sexual 118 pages.

I agree with your reasoning on why it DOES matter. My MIL's claim is that these were spiritual sealings only, performed in order to gain some special celestial status or blessings. I have no idea how the Lord sees things, but I certainly see a difference between some spiritual ordinance and having sex with someone's wife.

The problem with your "118 pages" analogy is that Joseph claimed to have been backed into polygamy, that the Lord kept "bothering" him about it until he finally had no choice. This is certainly conceivable--by all accounts, he was happily married to Emma, and polygamy would certainly throw a wrench in things. Additionally, why risk the well-being of the Church on it? He lost at least one of his most trusted assistants over it (Oliver Cowdery) and acquired a whole set of enemies (William Law, for example). He had to have anticipated this; indeed, the very tight circle of friends who knew about this would indicate that he realized what the consequences of general knowledge of the practice would be.

I don't think we can write this off so easily as a horny guy trying to get some. To deny that Joseph was inspired on this point puts his entire calling as a prophet in doubt, IMO. He did not take this decision lightly. It was thoroughly thought out and carefully executed. Which leaves me with three possibilities:
1) JS was not a prophet and fell to the temptations of a powerful man.
2) JS was a "fallen prophet".
3) JS was a prophet, polygamy was inspired, and we just don't get it because we're seeing it through an earthly understanding.

[Rosebud]

My great-great Grandfather was a polygamist. He did NOT enjoy it. He married one woman who had 4 children after her husband passed away. This was not an old guy looking for a thrill.

If you think about polygamy as an economist would, you find that monogamy is the ONLY way some of us would have the wives we have. Let's face it, there are way more quality woman than men. Via monogamy, we losers get a shot at women who wouldn't give a us second look. Monogamy limits a woman's choice - giving us a chance. Limiting choice is NOT a good thing, for women.

Look around your ward this week and look at the dweebs married to quality women. Look at the great women who are unmarried.

My grandfather's story ends with him living in the chicken coop and leaving his homes to his four wives. The thought of polygamy makes me shrivel like a spider on a hot stove.

Really sick of this reasoning... it's insulting... reminds me of pandering conference talks. I don't buy for a second that women are morally superior to men. This is just an example of another dogma that gets used to put women in a separate "better" place than men and consequently with fewer rights.

[Indy Coug]

3) JS was a prophet, polygamy was inspired, and we just don't get it because we're seeing it through an earthly understanding.

It's my opinion that we just have no real understanding of how these unions work in the hereafter, particularly in regards to how we interrelate with one another.

At one point, it was OK for brothers and sisters to procreate, until it wasn't. It was OK for God and Mary to produce Jesus. It was OK for Abraham to take Hagar. We are led to believe that we and our spouses are all offspring of our Heavenly Father, so our eternal marriages are already incestuous from a certain point of reference.

My point is that there clearly appears to be some flexibility in the governing rules of who and how this stuff happens. That doesn't mean I advocate a moral carte blanche; there clearly is a divine purpose behind these different approaches at different times. What I am saying is that I think it's entirely possible that when we get to the other side, we're going to find that these relationships that we enter into in this life will transform into interrelationships that we can't comprehend and likely would never have imagined could be possible.

[Jeff Lebowski]

One of the most disturbing things to me about the early practice of polygamy was the "secrecy" element. I just can't wrap my mind around the concept of God telling you to do something and at the same time telling you to lie about it. The deception also gave tremendous ammunition for the enemies of the church. Legitimate ammunition.

Maybe there is a good explanation for this that I just haven't heard yet.

[Goatnapper'96]

One of the most disturbing things to me about the early practice of polygamy was the "secrecy" element. I just can't wrap my mind around the concept of God telling you to do something and at the same time telling you to lie about it. The deception also gave tremendous ammunition for the enemies of the church. Legitimate ammunition.

Maybe there is a good explanation for this that I just haven't heard yet.

Two words....Emma Hale Smith Bidamon.

The first word is Emma, you can pick the final 3 which one will make the 2nd.

[Mormon Red Death]

It shows that "his boys couldn't swim"

well they swam with emma... but not any of the 30 others?

[YOhio]

Two words....Emma Hale Smith Bidamon.

The first word is Emma, you can pick the final 3 which one will make the 2nd.

You and your riddles. Just give us the answer already!

[Goatnapper'96]

You and your riddles. Just give us the answer already!

Look Damned it, he said "good explanation." All of us Brighamites (save Indy and the new wave of post-modern mormonism who views our beloved Enigma as if she died the day the seer died) know Emma is "the damndest liar" ol Brother Brigham ever knew (And I hope he isn't using know as this thread might inspire). As such the dear ol apostate is the source of all evil and thus to blame. This is all basic info, I needed to spice it up to reach the level of "good" for an otherwise bland "Emma is to blame uh'gin!"

But you can ask ol Eliza R. if lovely Emma was unaware of Joseph's "spiritual wives!"

[jay santos]

I agree with your reasoning on why it DOES matter. My MIL's claim is that these were spiritual sealings only, performed in order to gain some special celestial status or blessings. I have no idea how the Lord sees things, but I certainly see a difference between some spiritual ordinance and having sex with someone's wife.

The problem with your "118 pages" analogy is that Joseph claimed to have been backed into polygamy, that the Lord kept "bothering" him about it until he finally had no choice. This is certainly conceivable--by all accounts, he was happily married to Emma, and polygamy would certainly throw a wrench in things. Additionally, why risk the well-being of the Church on it? He lost at least one of his most trusted assistants over it (Oliver Cowdery) and acquired a whole set of enemies (William Law, for example). He had to have anticipated this; indeed, the very tight circle of friends who knew about this would indicate that he realized what the consequences of general knowledge of the practice would be.

I don't think we can write this off so easily as a horny guy trying to get some. To deny that Joseph was inspired on this point puts his entire calling as a prophet in doubt, IMO. He did not take this decision lightly. It was thoroughly thought out and carefully executed. Which leaves me with three possibilities:
1) JS was not a prophet and fell to the temptations of a powerful man.
2) JS was a "fallen prophet".
3) JS was a prophet, polygamy was inspired, and we just don't get it because we're seeing it through an earthly understanding.

Could a prophet commit adultery and not be a "fallen prophet"?

[Indy Coug]

...(save Indy and the new wave of post-modern mormonism who views our beloved Enigma as if she died the day the seer died) ...

I'm curious how I am the poster boy on this topic. I don't recall saying much of anything about Emma.

[Indy Coug]

Could a prophet commit adultery and not be a "fallen prophet"?

Only if it was through viewing internet porn.