Elderbednarophobia

[Flystripper]

Maybe it is the three fingers of scotch with a cohiba talking but sooner is just posting with the venom of a passionate recent unbeliever. When the discussion rises to social injustices I really appreciate the passionate argument with all of the vitriol, but when the discussion meanders into esoteric doctrine for which I don't hold any sort of belief, I can't muster the passion to respond in kind. Belief in Mormonism's doctrinal claims just cant rile me up anymore. Sooner will probably come around in this regard. The fact that Bednar values spiritual knowledge over scholarship is offensive to Sooner who holds countless degrees and honors, but with some more time I doubt he continues to be offended by the value placed on spirituality by faithful people. For the most part people's spirituality leads them to acts of service and kindness. From what I gather Sooner is on board with that. When religious belief leads to repression of women, races, and sexual orientation by all means argue away; however, when someone espouses the value of spiritual belief, I can't understand why the unbeliever cares in the slightest. I know I don't.

[Non Sequitur]

Cougarstadium is not a patient bedside scenario.

I am direct with patients when they try to imply that God will heal them. I tell them I hope God does heal them, but I also tell them that the day I see it happen it'll be published for the world to see. I explain that so far there are no credible reports of it happening. To say anything other than that would be a disservice to the patient.

There is no good reason to perpetuate fantasy. False hope and false comfort are not a virtue.

You're right. CS is not a patient bedside scenario. You tell your patients what you do because it's your job to heal them, and you know that their safety is at risk if you allow them to rely on false hope. But people here aren't paying you to heal them. A lot of the people I love, cling to that false hope, and for many of them it is a virtue. And what's so bad about false comfort? For some people the alternative to false comfort is despair. Where's the virtue in that?

[SoonerCoug]

You're right. CS is not a patient bedside scenario. You tell your patients what you do because it's your job to heal them, and you know that their safety is at risk if you allow them to rely on false hope. But people here aren't paying you to heal them. A lot of the people I love, cling to that false hope, and for many of them it is a virtue. And what's so bad about false comfort? For some people the alternative to false comfort is despair. Where's the virtue in that?

It's bad because it has major side effects on society for people to believe things based on feelings and tradition and for them to even consider things to be supremely true--above all else--on false evidence. (I am referring to religion generally.)

I suppose the point to the Book of Mormon musical has some merit: It's ok to believe made up things if it makes people extremely nice to each other.

However, I think having societies where people believe things based on feelings and tradition are incredibly dangerous. There are tremendous side effects (belief in strange, alternative medicines based on feelings, rejection of scientific truth in favor of so-called spiritual truth). Science education in America is on the level of 3rd world countries. I do not think this is from a failure to invest money in science education. Our science has succeeded merely because of H1B visas. So why is it that Americans are so bad at science? I believe it is a direct effect of raising children to believe that real truth can be obtained through prayer and feelings.

I distinctly remember bringing up evolution in an 8th grade class surrounded by all kinds of intelligent Mormon kids including Levin. I was summarily attacked from all sides by everyone including Levin. What could explain the devotion of children to falsehood? They were not born with religion just like they were not born circumcised. They were mentally mutilated without ever being allowed to develop and make their own choices free of religious indoctrination.

I have seen patients die because they reject treatment in favor of religious healing.

A person can say: "I am religious but would never do what those extreme religious people do." That's great except there is a much bigger problem. The mere credibility that religion has in society leads to all kinds of extreme, unreasoned views--rejection of birth control, abstinence education, puritanism, which lead to millions of unplanned pregnancies and abortions. Abortions are available on every street corner in the Netherlands, but America's abortion rate vastly exceeds the rate in Western Europe. Why is that??? Consider what Catholicism has done in catholic communities in Africa where HIV is so prevalent (1 in 5 people) and people are told never to use a condom!!! I think this quote sums up the reason I care about the issue: "Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings." A response would be: "But my religion is moderate!" To that I'd say: "you're moderate but your religion seeks to invalidate gay marriage, propagate sexism, and generally teach people that they can know if something is true merely by listening to a still small voice."

[byu71]

Maybe it is the three fingers of scotch with a cohiba talking but sooner is just posting with the venom of a passionate recent unbeliever. When the discussion rises to social injustices I really appreciate the passionate argument with all of the vitriol, but when the discussion meanders into esoteric doctrine for which I don't hold any sort of belief, I can't muster the passion to respond in kind. Belief in Mormonism's doctrinal claims just cant rile me up anymore. Sooner will probably come around in this regard. The fact that Bednar values spiritual knowledge over scholarship is offensive to Sooner who holds countless degrees and honors, but with some more time I doubt he continues to be offended by the value placed on spirituality by faithful people. For the most part people's spirituality leads them to acts of service and kindness. From what I gather Sooner is on board with that. When religious belief leads to repression of women, races, and sexual orientation by all means argue away; however, when someone espouses the value of spiritual belief, I can't understand why the unbeliever cares in the slightest. I know I don't.

Case in point. I know someone who started a business with an old missionary companion. At one point they were in dire straits. He kept paying his tithing anyway. They eventually landed a big deal, built the company through hard work and eventually sold it for close to $100 million.

He tells everyone they were lucky and worked hard, but he firmly believes he wouldn't have had the outcome if he hadn't paid tithing faithfully. Sooner would argue with him that it had nothing to do with his spiritual belief in tithing, but instead his excellent education. Oh wait, he didn't graduate from college.

Now I might actually think it was his common sense, which in my opinion is a better gift than a high IQ, hard work and perhaps some luck, but as I think you indicated, why the need to argue it?

He gives a lot of money away to worthy charities. His belief not only helped him, but also others. I don't get the need for someone to tell another their belief system isn't as good as someone's smarts system.

[Moliere]

http://videobam.com/dGidF

I can pull up the website but the video won't play

[YOhio]

It's bad because it has major side effects on society for people to believe things based on feelings and tradition and for them to even consider things to be supremely true--above all else--on false evidence. (I am referring to religion generally.)

I suppose the point to the Book of Mormon musical has some merit: It's ok to believe made up things if it makes people extremely nice to each other.

However, I think having societies where people believe things based on feelings and tradition are incredibly dangerous. There are tremendous side effects (belief in strange, alternative medicines based on feelings, rejection of scientific truth in favor of so-called spiritual truth). Science education in America is on the level of 3rd world countries. I do not think this is from a failure to invest money in science education. Our science has succeeded merely because of H1B visas. So why is it that Americans are so bad at science? I believe it is a direct effect of raising children to believe that real truth can be obtained through prayer and feelings.

I distinctly remember bringing up evolution in an 8th grade class surrounded by all kinds of intelligent Mormon kids including Levin. I was summarily attacked from all sides by everyone including Levin. What could explain the devotion of children to falsehood? They were not born with religion just like they were not born circumcised. They were mentally mutilated without ever being allowed to develop and make their own choices free of religious indoctrination.

I have seen patients die because they reject treatment in favor of religious healing.

A person can say: "I am religious but would never do what those extreme religious people do." That's great except there is a much bigger problem. The mere credibility that religion has in society leads to all kinds of extreme, unreasoned views--rejection of birth control, abstinence education, puritanism, which lead to millions of unplanned pregnancies and abortions. Abortions are available on every street corner in the Netherlands, but America's abortion rate vastly exceeds the rate in Western Europe. Why is that??? Consider what Catholicism has done in catholic communities in Africa where HIV is so prevalent (1 in 5 people) and people are told never to use a condom!!! I think this quote sums up the reason I care about the issue: "Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings." A response would be: "But my religion is moderate!" To that I'd say: "you're moderate but your religion seeks to invalidate gay marriage, propagate sexism, and generally teach people that they can know if something is true merely by listening to a still small voice."

I can see you're going through a faith crisis right now and you have some reservations about the truthfulness claims made by the LDS church. Just keep reading your scriptures, attending church and saying your prayers and I have a feeling that things will turn out just fine. Good luck!

[Topper]

Yep. Like "Show me scientific proof that there is a God!". Can't believe people rise to that bait.

What I am really enjoying, however, is Topper lecturing Sooner about being obtuse. Now THAT is funny.

Coming from you, I will take that as a compliment. A slightly less obtuse person rolling his eyes at others.

[Topper]

Maybe it is the three fingers of scotch with a cohiba talking but sooner is just posting with the venom of a passionate recent unbeliever. When the discussion rises to social injustices I really appreciate the passionate argument with all of the vitriol, but when the discussion meanders into esoteric doctrine for which I don't hold any sort of belief, I can't muster the passion to respond in kind. Belief in Mormonism's doctrinal claims just cant rile me up anymore. Sooner will probably come around in this regard. The fact that Bednar values spiritual knowledge over scholarship is offensive to Sooner who holds countless degrees and honors, but with some more time I doubt he continues to be offended by the value placed on spirituality by faithful people. For the most part people's spirituality leads them to acts of service and kindness. From what I gather Sooner is on board with that. When religious belief leads to repression of women, races, and sexual orientation by all means argue away; however, when someone espouses the value of spiritual belief, I can't understand why the unbeliever cares in the slightest. I know I don't.

You are assuming he cares that his staging is nothing more than show. How else can he receive the attention he receives? In rearing and disciplining children, you have probably noticed some children prefer punishment to being ignored. Negative attention is better than no attention.

[byu71]

What I am really enjoying, however, is Topper lecturing Sooner about being obtuse. Now THAT is funny.

Yea, I don't get that either. How would Topper know Sooner is overweight? Sooner has never said anything about his weight.

[Non Sequitur]

It's bad because it has major side effects on society for people to believe things based on feelings and tradition and for them to even consider things to be supremely true--above all else--on false evidence. (I am referring to religion generally.)

I suppose the point to the Book of Mormon musical has some merit: It's ok to believe made up things if it makes people extremely nice to each other.

However, I think having societies where people believe things based on feelings and tradition are incredibly dangerous. There are tremendous side effects (belief in strange, alternative medicines based on feelings, rejection of scientific truth in favor of so-called spiritual truth). Science education in America is on the level of 3rd world countries. I do not think this is from a failure to invest money in science education. Our science has succeeded merely because of H1B visas. So why is it that Americans are so bad at science? I believe it is a direct effect of raising children to believe that real truth can be obtained through prayer and feelings.

I distinctly remember bringing up evolution in an 8th grade class surrounded by all kinds of intelligent Mormon kids including Levin. I was summarily attacked from all sides by everyone including Levin. What could explain the devotion of children to falsehood? They were not born with religion just like they were not born circumcised. They were mentally mutilated without ever being allowed to develop and make their own choices free of religious indoctrination.

I have seen patients die because they reject treatment in favor of religious healing.

A person can say: "I am religious but would never do what those extreme religious people do." That's great except there is a much bigger problem. The mere credibility that religion has in society leads to all kinds of extreme, unreasoned views--rejection of birth control, abstinence education, puritanism, which lead to millions of unplanned pregnancies and abortions. Abortions are available on every street corner in the Netherlands, but America's abortion rate vastly exceeds the rate in Western Europe. Why is that??? Consider what Catholicism has done in catholic communities in Africa where HIV is so prevalent (1 in 5 people) and people are told never to use a condom!!! I think this quote sums up the reason I care about the issue: "Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings." A response would be: "But my religion is moderate!" To that I'd say: "you're moderate but your religion seeks to invalidate gay marriage, propagate sexism, and generally teach people that they can know if something is true merely by listening to a still small voice."

You make some points, but we put a man on the moon when our country was much more religious than it is today. My father was a physicist who worked with lasers. His religious beliefs never interfered with his work. You say our science has succeeded because of H1B visas. My company out-sources a lot of its business to India, and that country is much more religious than ours. I share your disappointment with the way gays are treated by religious people, but it's not because of a belief in God, it's because they use religion to justify their own bigotry that would likely exist whether they were religious or not. When the USSR outlawed religion, it didn't fix societal ills. People still found ways to hate each other. Yeah, it's sad that people die because they allow religious beliefs because they reject treatment, but that's rare. Hospitals are teeming with religious people allowing themselves to be treated.

[TripletDaddy]

lol. Apparently levin has always been a prick.

[SoonerCoug]

You make some points, but we put a man on the moon when our country was much more religious than it is today. My father was a physicist who worked with lasers. His religious beliefs never interfered with his work. You say our science has succeeded because of H1B visas. My company out-sources a lot of its business to India, and that country is much more religious than ours. I share your disappointment with the way gays are treated by religious people, but it's not because of a belief in God, it's because they use religion to justify their own bigotry that would likely exist whether they were religious or not. When the USSR outlawed religion, it didn't fix societal ills. People still found ways to hate each other. Yeah, it's sad that people die because they allow religious beliefs because they reject treatment, but that's rare. Hospitals are teeming with religious people allowing themselves to be treated.

You're mostly citing things occuring despite religion though.

Also, the USSR endorsed a form of religion--also at the expense of science. Read about the Lysenko affair.

What I say about H1B visas is true. It is America's secret weapon. You're making analogies about scientists thriving in religious countries, but ask yourself this: how many scientists are religious? The answer is: incredibly few. It's not that science factually conflicts with religion. It's that the manner of thinking conflicts.

[byu71]

It's not that science factually conflicts with religion. It's that the manner of thinking conflicts.

So does it then follow most scientists like to troll religious people?

[SoonerCoug]

lol. Apparently levin has always been a prick.

Levin is a fantastic person. I maybe shouldn't have used that as an example but it stands out in my memory. He is a smart guy.

[Paperback Writer]

I distinctly remember bringing up evolution in an 8th grade class surrounded by all kinds of intelligent Mormon kids including Levin. I was summarily attacked from all sides by everyone including Levin.

That's more like it, another pearl of great price from Sooner's experience that mentions some idiosyncrasy of Mormon culture. I enjoy reading stuff like that as it helps me to realize that some of the quirkiness of my own upringing may not have been so unusual. But deriding a Bednar talk at Rick's College is weak sause. Hope this lashing out is just a stage and that at some point you will experience a change of heart because you have so much potential. I, for one, look forward to the day when you return to the fold and are called to serve in the mission field, yet again, to a place like Russia where you can chronicle more pearls of great price via your Ipad. Now that would get me to subscribe to twitter!

On a different note, I do get a chuckle about LDS scientists not being able to think critically. My father is a scientist and I had the benefit of being reared in a college town where much of the ward were also scientists who taught me in Sunday School, YMs, etc. But that was before correlation had taken hold, perhaps we enjoyed a little more freedom in the midwest than in the Mormon west. Anyway, it made for some interesting experiences but I've never thought these highly educated people, whom I have come to appreciate even more later in life, lacked the ability to think critically. I do think in this current era of correlation we see less evidence of this in formal church settings, but that doesn't mean that scientists or others have somehow not developed or lost the ability to think critically.