The June 1

[creekster]

I must be missing this brief. Sounds like it's pointless anyway so I won't bother.

In any case, I don't think it's at all obvious that she meets that definition. 1) would be the only possible application so i guess it depends on your definition of "opposition".

The brief is linked in JL's post above. Its the second link. I don't know how you could conclude her actions do not meet the first definition. You may not think that such actions deserve to be called apostasy (which is essentially what she is saying) but it seems to me it is very hard to argue credibly there isnt apostasy under that definition.

[ERCougar]

The brief is linked in JL's post above. Its the second link. I don't know how you could conclude her actions do not meet the first definition. You may not think that such actions deserve to be called apostasy (which is essentially what she is saying) but it seems to me it is very hard to argue credibly there isnt apostasy under that definition.

thanks. I'll read the brief, but in the meantime, how has she opposed the church? To me, it seems like she's trying to work within the established structure and hierarchy.

[wuapinmon]

I expected to be and feel sorrowful today about all of this. Instead, there is sunshine in my soul today. We took Jackjack to Deseret Book yesterday, where I noticed copious copies of Sherri Dew's Women and the Priesthood: What One Mormon Woman Believes on deep discount, and got him some scriptures. While he and I waited for the womenfolk to purchase and order new garments, we sat in some leather lounge chairs and talked about baptism.

I asked him, "Why are you getting baptized?"
Jack: "Because I'm 8."
Me: Yeah, but why else.
J: Because I want to try and be like Jesus.
M: That's not easy, huh?
J: No, sir. But, I want to.
M: Why?
J: You've told me to.
M: Well, did he ever do anything wrong?
J: No.
M: Have you?
J: Yes....a lot.
M: Me too....a lot a lot. But, if we try to do what we can, Jesus is there to take up the slack when we mess up.
J: How?
M: Through the Atonement and his sacrifice.
J: Why?
M: That's how HF wanted it.
J: Ok. Can I have some more salt-water taffy?
M: Yes, indeed, my boy.

For today, I don't care about anything but Jack, his baptism, and the Low Country pulled pork for refreshments afterwards that I've got going.

[Pheidippides]

The brief is linked in JL's post above. Its the second link. I don't know how you could conclude her actions do not meet the first definition. You may not think that such actions deserve to be called apostasy (which is essentially what she is saying) but it seems to me it is very hard to argue credibly there isnt apostasy under that definition.

I'll argue it. I think you can easily say that it wasn't opposition, that she was trying to work with them, simply get them to ask a question. I think that it's a stretch to call Michael Otterson a leader as well. Nobody other than Otterson or his flunkies have ever said anything. That's not going to win, but it's credible. Although, as I said above, I think the HOI is only as binding as the church wants it to be.

But, to argue they point they are making, any member who takes any public stand for (for example) gay marriage is an apostate. Almost all of us are apostates based on what we've said here, in a public forum.

I'm still having a hard time figuring out why I care about this. But I do, so oh well.

[ERCougar]

Just read the brief and I think she makes a very credible argument against the definition. If the Brethren had even acknowledged her or the group's existence, maybe she could actually "oppose" them.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I expected to be and feel sorrowful today about all of this. Instead, there is sunshine in my soul today. We took Jackjack to Deseret Book yesterday, where I noticed copious copies of Sherri Dew's Women and the Priesthood: What One Mormon Woman Believes on deep discount, and got him some scriptures. While he and I waited for the womenfolk to purchase and order new garments, we sat in some leather lounge chairs and talked about baptism.

I asked him, "Why are you getting baptized?"
Jack: "Because I'm 8."
Me: Yeah, but why else.
J: Because I want to try and be like Jesus.
M: That's not easy, huh?
J: No, sir. But, I want to.
M: Why?
J: You've told me to.
M: Well, did he ever do anything wrong?
J: No.
M: Have you?
J: Yes....a lot.
M: Me too....a lot a lot. But, if we try to do what we can, Jesus is there to take up the slack when we mess up.
J: How?
M: Through the Atonement and his sacrifice.
J: Why?
M: That's how HF wanted it.
J: Ok. Can I have some more salt-water taffy?
M: Yes, indeed, my boy.

For today, I don't care about anything but Jack, his baptism, and the Low Country pulled pork for refreshments afterwards that I've got going.

That is awesome, wuap. Best wishes today.

[smokymountainrain]

I expected to be and feel sorrowful today about all of this. Instead, there is sunshine in my soul today. We took Jackjack to Deseret Book yesterday, where I noticed copious copies of Sherri Dew's Women and the Priesthood: What One Mormon Woman Believes on deep discount, and got him some scriptures. While he and I waited for the womenfolk to purchase and order new garments, we sat in some leather lounge chairs and talked about baptism.

I asked him, "Why are you getting baptized?"
Jack: "Because I'm 8."
Me: Yeah, but why else.
J: Because I want to try and be like Jesus.
M: That's not easy, huh?
J: No, sir. But, I want to.
M: Why?
J: You've told me to.
M: Well, did he ever do anything wrong?
J: No.
M: Have you?
J: Yes....a lot.
M: Me too....a lot a lot. But, if we try to do what we can, Jesus is there to take up the slack when we mess up.
J: How?
M: Through the Atonement and his sacrifice.
J: Why?
M: That's how HF wanted it.
J: Ok. Can I have some more salt-water taffy?
M: Yes, indeed, my boy.

For today, I don't care about anything but Jack, his baptism, and the Low Country pulled pork for refreshments afterwards that I've got going.

If he really wants to be like Jesus, you should go buy him an O's hat to celebrate and put him on the right track! They are up 3-1 against Satan's team right now, in fact.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

If he really wants to be like Jesus, you should go buy him an O's hat to celebrate and put him on the right track! They are up 3-1 against Satan's team right now, in fact.

Jesus doesn't care about baseball, that's why he gave us football.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The brief is linked in JL's post above. Its the second link. I don't know how you could conclude her actions do not meet the first definition. You may not think that such actions deserve to be called apostasy (which is essentially what she is saying) but it seems to me it is very hard to argue credibly there isnt apostasy under that definition.

Sure. When you define it like that, it is pretty easy to label something as apostasy when you want to. Once she was formally told to stop and she didn't, she met the definition. I would stunned if they don't ex her tomorrow.

That being said, it is a shame they handled it all this way.

[smokymountainrain]

Jesus doesn't care about baseball, that's why he gave us football.

[ERCougar]

Sure. When you define it like that, it is pretty easy to label something as apostasy when you want to. Once she was formally told to stop and she didn't, she met the definition. I would stunned if they don't ex her tomorrow.

That being said, it is a shame they handled it all this way.

That there a second definition to encompass defying leader's orders implies that opposition is not the same thing.

[YOhio]

Jesus doesn't care about baseball, that's why he gave us football.

I feel the same way. Omg we have so much in common!

[All-American]

I expected to be and feel sorrowful today about all of this. Instead, there is sunshine in my soul today. We took Jackjack to Deseret Book yesterday, where I noticed copious copies of Sherri Dew's Women and the Priesthood: What One Mormon Woman Believes on deep discount, and got him some scriptures. While he and I waited for the womenfolk to purchase and order new garments, we sat in some leather lounge chairs and talked about baptism.

I asked him, "Why are you getting baptized?"
Jack: "Because I'm 8."
Me: Yeah, but why else.
J: Because I want to try and be like Jesus.
M: That's not easy, huh?
J: No, sir. But, I want to.
M: Why?
J: You've told me to.
M: Well, did he ever do anything wrong?
J: No.
M: Have you?
J: Yes....a lot.
M: Me too....a lot a lot. But, if we try to do what we can, Jesus is there to take up the slack when we mess up.
J: How?
M: Through the Atonement and his sacrifice.
J: Why?
M: That's how HF wanted it.
J: Ok. Can I have some more salt-water taffy?
M: Yes, indeed, my boy.

For today, I don't care about anything but Jack, his baptism, and the Low Country pulled pork for refreshments afterwards that I've got going.

What a great exchange. I love that he calls you "Sir," too. Best wishes for a great experience for you both.

[YOhio]

Sure. When you define it like that, it is pretty easy to label something as apostasy when you want to. Once she was formally told to stop and she didn't, she met the definition. I would stunned if they don't ex her tomorrow.

That being said, it is a shame they handled it all this way.

I don't know. I think she's got a pretty good shot at DF or even extended probation. I'm not putting money on it just yet, but I've got a gut feel that tomorrow won't result in an excom.

[All-American]

Wow.
The pictures were a little cheesy, but the documentation of her repeated correspondence is pretty damning, and you really can't doubt her sincerity. I would hate to be on that council. They have really been put in an awful sport.

I can, and do, doubt her sincerity. Nothing in that letter is so telling as the fact that we are reading it.

The gyst of the letter is that she has no intention to stop what she's doing, and if they try to discipline her for it, they, not she, is at fault. (I notice, too, that she addressed the men by name only, and not by title, like "Bishop". Hopefully, not something that will affect anybody much, but I can imagine a bishop interpreting that as a lack of respect for authority.)