The June 1

[ERCougar]

People like them? How about people like you? Why don't you put it out there for everyone, proving the courage of your convictions?

In my mind her behavior suggest that she does not believe the church is the instrument of God on earth. If she did, she would not behave this way, even if she held her currently stated opinions on gender issues and sought a change in those policies in the current organization. Instead she, like many here and elsewhere, is treating the church like it is a social club and acting like she wants to change the charter to suit her interests. I understand the implications of both of these positions, and that I understand there are merits for both positions, but the fact is that those two positions are not likely to be reconciled at the level of protecting perceived doctrine or orthodoxy and her behavior shows where she falls. As someone else said in this thread, she should not be surprised that she is being treated this way and her current behavior simply reinforces the views of those who see her as an unreasonable, non-believer who is threatening the church (whether or not she is trying to burn it down).

"people like them" = people who are willing to tear up someone's life in the name of God.

And fantastic to have another uninformed judgment! Facebook is full of them these days. Of course, there people post them behind their real identities.

[Jeff Lebowski]

"people like them" = people who are willing to tear up someone's life in the name of God.

And fantastic to have another uninformed judgment! Facebook is full of them these days.

Speaking of FB posts, saw this one this morning. From a woman.

These women.need to shut up and sit down. If you do not like that women cannot be ordaibed THEN LEAVE!!!!! No one is forcing byou to be a Mormon. But stop trying to make women responsible for the entire church. I do not have time to baptisms, be a bishop, give blessings, do home teaching and visiting teaching. Some of us are quite content with our role in the church and do not need it expanded. Why are women always trying to usurp the male role and his authority? It sickens me. Grow up and accept the Plan of Salvation as it is or leave!

[creekster]

"people like them" = people who are willing to tear up someone's life in the name of God.

And fantastic to have another uninformed judgment! Facebook is full of them these days. Of course, there people post them behind their real identities.

The irony there is delicious. Tearing up her life in the name of God? But she supposedly thinks these 'people like them" are acting for God and with his priesthood, which she supposedly values. The church is not a club. It is not open to popular vote. If she finds its current form unacceptable, and if she is unwilling to moderate her behavior as requested, then she can leave. In fact, I would guess she would likely want to leave. But her life is not torn up as a result of the publicity, as she had already chosen to be a public figure. Unlike the ward leaders, who did not choose to be public figures.

And my opinion above was not a 'judgment' it was an opinion based upon observation and reported behavior. IF you disagree with it feel free to say why. But perhaps you prefer the much more noble Facebook forum, where you reveal your true identity. As you wish. My only point is that the church is either what it claims, and so it should be dealt with accordingly, or it is not at all what it claims, and there isn't much reason to deal with it at all. I am not sure I see a lot of room in between.

[Moliere]

You guys keep saying that Kate initiated the publicity. Actually, she was told to publicly declare that she was not a member in good standing, or her stake president would do it for her. That's exactly what she did.

I highly doubt she was asked to publicly declare she was not in good standing. It's more likely she was only asked to not present herself as a member in good standing (as per the SP letter), which doesn't require a formal public announcement. I think there is a difference.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The irony there is delicious. Tearing up her life in the name of God? But she supposedly thinks these 'people like them" are acting for God and with his priesthood, which she supposedly values. The church is not a club. It is not open to popular vote. If she finds its current form unacceptable, and if she is unwilling to moderate her behavior as requested, then she can leave. In fact, I would guess she would likely want to leave. But her life is not torn up as a result of the publicity, as she had already chosen to be a public figure. Unlike the ward leaders, who did not choose to be public figures.

And my opinion above was not a 'judgment' it was an opinion based upon observation and reported behavior. IF you disagree with it feel free to say why. But perhaps you prefer the much more noble Facebook forum, where you reveal your true identity. As you wish. My only point is that the church is either what it claims, and so it should be dealt with accordingly, or it is not at all what it claims, and there isn't much reason to deal with it at all. I am not sure I see a lot of room in between.

So you imply that ER is chickenshit for not attaching his opinion to his identity, and now you mock him for doing so? Geez.

[creekster]

So you imply that ER is chickenshit for not attaching his opinion to his identity, and now you mock him for doing so? Geez.

I wasn't implying any such thing. I don't think he is chickenshit for doing it. I think he is prudent for not doing it. I think he is misguided for thinking she acted properly by publicizing their identities. As you surely realized, that was my point. He's the one that suggested FB was the better alternative, for some reason.

[Sullyute]

In my mind her behavior suggest that she does not believe the church is the instrument of God on earth. If she did, she would not behave this way, even if she held her currently stated opinions on gender issues and sought a change in those policies in the current organization.

Can you please let me know which specific behavior you are talking about? Do you mean her tactics to get an audience with church leadersship, or her current tactics to stem the church court proceedings?

I don't think that it is hard to separate belief in the institution from belief in the leadership that runs it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I wasn't implying any such thing. I don't think he is chickenshit for doing it. I think he is prudent for not doing it. I think he is misguided for thinking she acted properly by publicizing their identities. As you surely realized, that was my point. He's the one that suggested FB was the better alternative, for some reason.

BS. This is what you posted:

People like them? How about people like you? Why don't you put it out there for everyone, proving the courage of your convictions?

[creekster]

Can you please let me know which specific behavior you are talking about? Do you mean her tactics to get an audience with church leadersship, or her current tactics to stem the church court proceedings?

I don't think that it is hard to separate belief in the institution from belief in the leadership that runs it.

I mean her choice to esxert pressure by publicizing information that, in the normal course, would nto be published. There may be other acts that are also disingenuous, but I am not sure I can rely on some of what I have read, so I wont mention those.

[ERCougar]

The irony there is delicious. Tearing up her life in the name of God? But she supposedly thinks these 'people like them" are acting for God and with his priesthood, which she supposedly values. The church is not a club. It is not open to popular vote. If she finds its current form unacceptable, and if she is unwilling to moderate her behavior as requested, then she can leave. In fact, I would guess she would likely want to leave. But her life is not torn up as a result of the publicity, as she had already chosen to be a public figure. Unlike the ward leaders, who did not choose to be public figures.

And my opinion above was not a 'judgment' it was an opinion based upon observation and reported behavior. IF you disagree with it feel free to say why. But perhaps you prefer the much more noble Facebook forum, where you reveal your true identity. As you wish. My only point is that the church is either what it claims, and so it should be dealt with accordingly, or it is not at all what it claims, and there isn't much reason to deal with it at all. I am not sure I see a lot of room in between.

So we're back to the circular "the church is right because it's the church". Makes for interesting discussion.

And no, they didn't choose to be involved. they will choose what her fate will be.

I highly doubt she was asked to publicly declare she was not in good standing. It's more likely she was only asked to not present herself as a member in good standing (as per the SP letter), which doesn't require a formal public announcement. I think there is a difference.

I can imagine her stake president asking her to publicize that she's not a member in good standing. after all, the whole purpose of this is to debunk the idea that ordain women is a faithful movement.

[creekster]

BS. This is what you posted:

I was pointing out the inconsistency in his argument. did I tell him he SHOULD do it? But you can think whatever you want. Is this what you mean, btw, in talking about the issue instead of making it personal?

[Jeff Lebowski]

I was pointing out the inconsistency in his argument. did I tell him he SHOULD do it? But you can think whatever you want. Is this what you mean, btw, in talking about the issue instead of making it personal?

So now I am the one making this personal? Holy cow.

[creekster]

So we're back to the circular "the church is right because it's the church". Makes for interesting discussion.

That's not at all what I said. My point is if you think the church IS what it claims, then you should treat it that way. I don't understand how you can claim it is the instrument of God and then act like its the Wednesday night book club.

[creekster]

So now I am the one making this personal? Holy cow.

Holy cow, indeed.

[Blueintheface]

Speaking of FB posts, saw this one this morning. From a woman.

Painful.

Speaking of painful, you and Creekster just need to hug it out.