The June 1

[byu71]

So what is wrong with him working to try to change those laws?

If he wants to, I don't care. You missed my point

He named off a lot of things he loves about living in Utah. Something he really dislikes he blames on the mormon culture. Do you think that a huge reason for the things he likes also has something to do with the mormon culture or influence?

Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too. I don't blame someone for trying though, but don't ask me to shed any tears if they don't get it.

[byu71]

Very well done. By the way, I am unfamiliar with the Utah liquor laws. What makes them so onerous?

Don't know. I have focused all of my energy on the onerous honor code rules at BYU.

[thesaint258]

It kind of reminds me of a discussion I had with a guy here in the office a while ago. He was going off on the Utah alcohol laws and how the mormons control the state. He moved here from California many years ago.

I asked him why they moved and stayed here. He likes the family atmoshpere. He thinks kids are less likely to get caught up in a gang culture or a drug culture. He likes the business climate. He really loves living here, but hates how much influence the LDS culture has, especially the alcohol laws.

This kind of reminds me of my latest trip to Wisconsin. I was sitting at the bar with a couple of partners, and one of them ordered a scotch. His eyes nearly popped out when he saw the bartender pour his drink. He was pretty surprised because it was about four times as much as he usually gets here. On a related note, it's pretty funny to talk philosophy with people who have a really good buzz going.

[Portland Ute]

Don't know. I have focused all of my energy on the onerous honor code rules at BYU.

Why would you do that? Do you think that a huge reason for the things you like about the atmosphere at BYU also has something to do with the honor code rules?

[byu71]

Why would you do that? Do you think that a huge reason for the things you like about the atmosphere at BYU also has something to do with the honor code rules?

Nothing I like about BYU is a result of the honor code rules. It doesn't enhance the athletic program. It doesn't make the professors and quality of the education any better. It didn't have anything to do with the lasting friendships I made at BYU.

It makes it easier to control the students, that's it. If I were an administrator I would probably like that, but I am not an administrator at BYU.

[Topper]

Nothing I like about BYU is a result of the honor code rules. It doesn't enhance the athletic program. It doesn't make the professors and quality of the education any better. It didn't have anything to do with the lasting friendships I made at BYU.

It makes it easier to control the students, that's it. If I were an administrator I would probably like that, but I am not an administrator at BYU.

V. Lenin has a quote attributable to him, "Trust is good, but control is better." That reflects the attitude of BYU administration in regards to its administration of the Honor Code.

[Paperback Writer]

Nothing I like about BYU is a result of the honor code rules. It doesn't enhance the athletic program. It doesn't make the professors and quality of the education any better. It didn't have anything to do with the lasting friendships I made at BYU.

It makes it easier to control the students, that's it. If I were an administrator I would probably like that, but I am not an administrator at BYU.

And that's the problem. I had a similar conversation many years ago with a BYU administrator comparing campus life and academics with the (now) Big Ten school I attended before my mission and BYU where I was then a student. My view was that BYU would still have all those great qualities without its "onerous honor code". But the BYU administrator shared Portland Ute's view and insisted that all those great qualities were directly linked to BYU's honor code even though both universities shared many of the same outstanding qualities. I've since determined that a major reason BYU retains its "onerous honor code" is because so a many (a majority?) of faithful LDS and BYU alumni want it retained. So BYU won't modify it's honor code until that changes although I have heard of some positive changes in HC enforcement through my own kid who's currently a BYU student. If students quit applyiing to BYU then the HC policy would change but the trend is in the opposite direction.

I see a parallel between BYU's HC and LDS women and the priesthood. The church will not change it's doctrine/policy until a majority of LDS females want a change. And I don't see that happening anytime soon because people link many of the good things with the LDS church with its patiarchy even though other faiths share many of those good things and allow female ordination. If LDS women started skipping church or quit serving or joined other faiths, then LDS doctrine/policy could possibly change. But the trend is probably in the opposite direction.

[byu71]

And that's the problem. I had a similar conversation many years ago with a BYU administrator comparing campus life and academics with the (now) Big Ten school I attended before my mission and BYU where I was then a student. My view was that BYU would still have all those great qualities without its "onerous honor code". But the BYU administrator shared Portland Ute's view and insisted that all those great qualities were directly linked to BYU's honor code even though both universities shared many of the same outstanding qualities. I've since determined that a major reason BYU retains its "onerous honor code" is because so a many (a majority?) of faithful LDS and BYU alumni want it retained. So BYU won't modify it's honor code until that changes although I have heard of some positive changes in HC enforcement through my own kid who's currently a BYU student. If students quit applyiing to BYU then the HC policy would change but the trend is in the opposite direction.

I see a parallel between BYU's HC and LDS women and the priesthood. The church will not change it's doctrine/policy until a majority of LDS females want a change. And I don't see that happening anytime soon because people link many of the good things with the LDS church with its patiarchy even though other faiths share many of those good things and allow female ordination. If LDS women started skipping church or quit serving or joined other faiths, then LDS doctrine/policy could possibly change. But the trend is probably in the opposite direction.

I would say the vast majority of active members support the honor code. I would use the words fear and control to describe why they like it. Perhaps there are better words to describe my feelings.

The fear factor is that the students won't do the right thing. So worried about the image and that without the fear of getting kicked out there is the fear you can't trust the students to do the right thing. I mean these are kids that have to be rated very high academically and have the highest recommendation from their ecclastical leaders and yet we fear they can't be trusted.

I think most parents would love the control over their kids BYU has. As a concerned parent I would want my child in the least threatening environment. BYU creates that for the LDS. Sure things happen, but the opportunites are far less.

I remember the story President Samuelson told about a mother being upset seeing her daughter on a visit and the blouse she was wearing. She was questionning President Samuelson as to whether the school was doing enough to make sure her daughter dressed modestly. Samuelson was using the story to indicate they must be more vigilent. My thoughts were, holy hades lady, who is responsible for the child, the parent or the school?

[Topper]

Mormons share the sentiment of Lenin.

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[Jeff Lebowski]

Mormons share the sentiment of Lenin.

While Lenin was not a nazi, I am going to go ahead and call this a Godwin's Law violation.

[Paperback Writer]

I would say the vast majority of active members support the honor code. I would use the words fear and control to describe why they like it. Perhaps there are better words to describe my feelings.

The fear factor is that the students won't do the right thing. So worried about the image and that without the fear of getting kicked out there is the fear you can't trust the students to do the right thing. I mean these are kids that have to be rated very high academically and have the highest recommendation from their ecclastical leaders and yet we fear they can't be trusted.

I think most parents would love the control over their kids BYU has. As a concerned parent I would want my child in the least threatening environment. BYU creates that for the LDS. Sure things happen, but the opportunites are far less.

I remember the story President Samuelson told about a mother being upset seeing her daughter on a visit and the blouse she was wearing. She was questionning President Samuelson as to whether the school was doing enough to make sure her daughter dressed modestly. Samuelson was using the story to indicate they must be more vigilent. My thoughts were, holy hades lady, who is responsible for the child, the parent or the school?

We're in agreement. I'll also point out that the BYU student in your story in not a child; she is an adult and is the one responsible - not BYU, not the parent. But you're most likely in agreement. I don't view BYU's HC as a positive but most LDS parents view it as a big plus. I had this conversation with another LDS parent prior to our kids leaving for college. Many LDS parents want a church sponsored university to be a psuedo parent for their adult college students even if it involves fear and control. My response was that using fear and control at the expense of free agency didn't sound like the plan we supported in the pre-existense.

[Paperback Writer]

While Lenin was not a nazi, I am going to go ahead and call this a Godwin's Law violation.

I dunno. Dude, that's a broad brush given that the Communists and Nazis were arch enemies. Maybe there needs to be a Godwin's Law equivalent to comparisions to Communism and Lenin or Stalin.

[Topper]

I am appealing this.

Lenin stated trust is good but control is better.

The lady cited in the story wanted to micro manage her daughter because she didn't want to rely upon trust. It is why the honor code enforcement is wrong headed.

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[Jeff Lebowski]

I dunno. Dude, that's a broad brush given that the Communists and Nazis were arch enemies. Maybe there needs to be a Godwin's Law equivalent to comparisions to Communism and Lenin or Stalin.

Yeah, that's kind of my point.

But then you upped the ante and declared that the Honor Code = Satan's plan. Satan >>> Hitler/Stalin/Lenin. Way to go.

[Topper]

Huh? Where did I say that?

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