183 Semiannual General Conference Thread

[Moliere]

Jack Weyland, the author, in our HP group shared with us that he was talking to someone in the 12 and they told him their was a lot of back and forth that went on among them. They always came to the conclusion but it wasn't always easy to get there. It made me wonder why God wasn't telling them all the same thing.

I doubt God actually physically talks to any of them. That might be the problem.

[Indy Coug]

Jack Weyland, the author, in our HP group shared with us that he was talking to someone in the 12 and they told him their was a lot of back and forth that went on among them. They always came to the same conclusion but it wasn't always easy to get there. It made me wonder why God wasn't telling them all the same thing.

It's the principle of D&C 9 at play, but as part of a group dynamic rather than in isolation as individuals. Based on personal experience, I've seen how this works and it's really neat how you find yourselves collectively gravitating towards the correct decision after starting from very different places.

[Indy Coug]

lol. Indy lecturing on being jaded. Awesome.

I believe my inclusive edit allows for that possibility, while simultaneously allowing for Harry TIC to center himself underneath the jaded umbrella.

[jay santos]

Edits like these (the BRM Mormon Doctrine edits, BKP's recent talk, etc) leave members with two choices for thinking.

1. What was said was correct, but the church just can't be open about these things for fear of bad PR.
2. What was said was actually wrong and needed to be corrected.

I think the #1 group is just as dangerous to the church as any ProgMo's and would be shocked to know that was the case.

[Indy Coug]

Edits like these (the BRM Mormon Doctrine edits, BKP's recent talk, etc) leave members with two choices for thinking.

1. What was said was correct, but the church just can't be open about these things for fear of bad PR.
2. What was said was actually wrong and needed to be corrected.

I think the #1 group is just as dangerous to the church as any ProgMo's and would be shocked to know that was the case.

I don't think those are the only two possible choices.

[jay santos]

It's the principle of D&C 9 at play, but as part of a group dynamic rather than in isolation as individuals. Based on personal experience, I've seen how this works and it's really neat how you find yourselves collectively gravitating towards the correct decision after starting from very different places.

D & C 9 principle? When were you ever attempting to translate scripture with a divining rod?

[Harry Tic]

I doubt God actually physically talks to any of them. That might be the problem.

I think that there's a disconnect between the mythology that we have perpetuated in the church (and which church leaders have generally been content to look upon with benign indifference) that holds that God presents himself to his leaders in ways are fundamentally different than how he presents himself to any one of us (Denver Snuffer excepted) and the way that revelation actually works. He doesn't appear in person to GAs, they do not hear his voice in unique ways, he does not reveal his will verbatim to them. They struggle, as well all do, to discern his will and they exercise their best judgment according to the life experiences they've had and the sensitivities they have cultivated over a lifetime of experience. It is natural that their impressions are refined in conversations with others. Revelation can be a collective affair, the end result of a messy process of disagreements and differences of opinions with a plurality of voices providing necessary checks and balances.

This isn't quite the picture of divine revelation that the ordinary missionary presents to the ordinary investigator but I think this is a fair appraisal of how things actually work.

[Indy Coug]

D & C 9 principle? When were you ever attempting to translate scripture with a divining rod?

[byu71]

You are remarkably consistent, 71. I could disappear for millennia (you guys could only hope), and upon my return I'd still find the bulk of your posts consist of you worrying about someone else telling you what to do.

Gee Tex, that is one of the nicest things you have ever said to me. I am remarkably consistent and thank God for others like me who aren't willing to have others tell them what to think and do without putting some thought of their own into it. In a very humble way, let me say that is one of the characteristics of great thinkers and leaders.

Note: Followers such as yourself also can be great people. The world needs both.

[jay santos]

Redacted. I'm just messing around. I do remember a GA came and spoke to us at the MTC and told us to ignore D & C 9. That was specific instructions to Oliver and related to his specific encounter with God related to translating ancient scripture and had nothing to do with how regular people feel the Holy Ghost or get answers to prayers.

[Indy Coug]

Redacted. I'm just messing around. I do remember a GA came and spoke to us at the MTC and told us to ignore D & C 9. That was specific instructions to Oliver and related to his specific encounter with God related to translating ancient scripture and had nothing to do with how regular people feel the Holy Ghost or get answers to prayers.

I've found that spiritual answers have rarely come to me without my active participation in trying to figure out the answer beforehand. So to me, the extrapolated notion from D&C 9 that we need to do our part before we receive revelation is a true principle.

That of course doesn't preclude God from giving us additional light without any effort or thought on our part, but I don't think that is the primary model we should be relying upon.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I believe my inclusive edit allows for that possibility, while simultaneously allowing for Harry TIC to center himself underneath the jaded umbrella.

So let's see. Harry Tic interprets this as someone in the FP trying to be sensitive and careful not to offend and you interpret it as an attempt to view a broader range of people with contempt. And then you have the balls to call HIM jaded. Amazing.

[Indy Coug]

So let's see. Harry Tic interprets this as someone in the FP trying to be sensitive and careful not to offend and you interpret it as an attempt to view a broader range of people with contempt. And then you have the balls to call HIM jaded. Amazing.

[Tex]

The fact is, we don't have a clue what it really means to be sealed to someone beyond some vague generalities. Something you take on faith.

+1.

[Tex]

You're basically just saying: "Straight people are better parents than gay people." Just like earlier you said "Straight marriages are better than gay marriages." This basically sums up the Church position and again I just don't get it.

It's arrogant and I just don't think it's right. The gay people I know who have kids are awesome parents.

I'm not sure what it even means for a man to "simulate being a mother." I took care of a couple of little kids (1 and 2) all day today so my wife could do some things. I pretty much did exactly what my wife does with the kids during the day. Somehow the fact that I have a penis didn't seem to matter at all -- the kids had a great time and didn't seem to care or notice.

You unwittingly continue to make my point for me. Namely, what you're suggesting is a radical departure from existing doctrine on the family.