Fast Offerings

[RobinFinderson]

You consider apostacy to be the fully evolved state for people like The Rambam, but I disagree

That isn't right. For some time I wanted to be a The Rambam, but then I eventually figured out that I was more interested in other things. I'm not a fundamentalist. I don't divide the world into worthy and unworthy pursuits. If a person wanted to toil an entire life within the church, struggling to change it for the better, I would not consider that to be any less evolved than anything I have chosen to do. People should simply pursue the things that make them and their loved ones happy. If those puruits are not made at the expense of others, then I say more power to them.

[Jeff Lebowski]

My opinion on the subject:

The claim that the net flow of fast offerings is into the U.S. is pure unadulterated bullshit. Because neither of us have access to official church financial documents, neither of us can prove our opinion to be correct. For every anecdote you throw out I'll throw out a countering anecdote.

I'll share another opinion: Your bitterness, viciousness, and disrespect will always come back to meet you in the end. You will most certainly reap what we sow.

I am going to join with you and call BS on the fast offering/net flow claim. I don't believe that for a second.

But I think you are over-reacting with your last point. Can't we members have a little thicker skin when we encounter criticism from within? (or without?)

[SteelBlue]

That isn't right. For some time I wanted to be a The Rambam, but then I eventually figured out that I was more interested in other things. I'm not a fundamentalist. I don't divide the world into worthy and unworthy pursuits. If a person wanted to toil an entire life within the church, struggling to change it for the better, I would not consider that to be any less evolved than anything I have chosen to do. People should simply pursue the things that make them and their loved ones happy. If those puruits are not made at the expense of others, then I say more power to them.

Very well said Robin.

[cougarobgon]

I am going to join with you and call BS on the fast offering/net flow claim. I don't believe that for a second.

But I think you are over-reacting with your last point. Can't we members have a little thicker skin when we encounter criticism from within? (or without?)

During the six years that I was responsible for adminstering fast offerings in our ward we experienced several months or so where we needed help from the stake (wealthier wards) to cover the amount of $$s we spent to help some needy families in our ward. So I don't doubt that there are some wards in the US that have a negative cash flow, but, overall I doubt the US members use more fast offering funds than they donate. I guarantee you we would be hearing more talks from the pulpit about increasing our fast offerings instead of the often repeated avoiding pornography talks. I cannot recall the last time that I heard comments from the bishop or SP about increasing our fast offerings.

BTW, if you want to experience a fun calling volunteer for the transient bishop position...it is amazing how many people are out there wanting to take advantage of the Church's charitable nature. I filled in a few times when the transient bishop was not in town, and it was a lot of fun (as well as very sad when kids were involved) trying to determine whose need was legitimate or not.

[Mormon Red Death]

My stake is a Net Positive for Fast Offerings right now with 3 wards in the negative. Keep in mind that my stake covers the city of Detroit and Michigan is at almost 10% unemployment

[BlueHair]

During the six years that I was responsible for adminstering fast offerings in our ward we experienced several months or so where we needed help from the stake (wealthier wards) to cover the amount of $$s we spent to help some needy families in our ward. So I don't doubt that there are some wards in the US that have a negative cash flow, but, overall I doubt the US members use more fast offering funds than they donate. I guarantee you we would be hearing more talks from the pulpit about increasing our fast offerings instead of the often repeated avoiding pornography talks. I cannot recall the last time that I heard comments from the bishop or SP about increasing our fast offerings.

BTW, if you want to experience a fun calling volunteer for the transient bishop position...it is amazing how many people are out there wanting to take advantage of the Church's charitable nature. I filled in a few times when the transient bishop was not in town, and it was a lot of fun (as well as very sad when kids were involved) trying to determine whose need was legitimate or not.

A few years ago, my parent's bishop asked everyone in the ward to double their fast offering donations. My mom commented that this was the second request for an increase. I think people get into a habit of paying the same amount year in and year out.

[UtahDan]

I wonder how many Bishops are making $5000+ house payments in December for $700K+ homes in Draper and Highland and such.

I wonder that too. But do we have any reason to think that this is the case? I can tell you that my father was the bishop of the ward I grew up in when I was pretty young and that he has related the story of making a couple of very hefty house payments for a member of the ward at one time. He also said that prior to that this well off family had footed the bill for several missionaries alone and had made massive contributions not just through tithing but also for particulars needs when called upon, always anonymously, and always generously and willingly. So when their time of need came, the church helped. Can we really say that was wrong?

The point I'm making here is that I think you are jumping to a fairly cynical conclusion on this. I agree that the funds that members give are sacred and should be used wisely. But there are an awful lot of very tenuously supported assumptions that go into the conclusion that the church is unfairly supported wealthy people who are overextending themselves.

I also wonder how many Kenyan and Bolivian and Vietnamese and Nigerian and Mexican Saints are going hungry and without education this school year.

As it happens one of my good friends spent two years in Nairobi attached to the embassy and he returned with some very interesting comments. The first was that welfare is impossible to administer there because EVERYONE would be participating. He is a very what I consider to be orthodox Mormon and he became very jaded in his views of the members in that country. Every week he was approached by half a dozen people for a loan, requesting a favor, wanting something. There were some good members there, but most of them were there to get a handout of some kind. So the assumption that there is money that we could more effectively be throwing at saints in other part of the world is not always a correct one.

I don't disagree, again, that we should use all of the funds wisely. But I do believe that this is what is being attempted and that less than a full factual understanding of the constraints we (the church) operate under in these places may lead to conclusions that are not well supported.

Nevermind--I'm heading downtown to enjoy the Temple Square Light Extravaganza and gorge at the all-you-can-eat $36/plate "Gourmet Dinner Buffet" at the Roof Restaurant. (While on hold to check the price for the buffet, you will be happy to know that interspersed with the jazzed up Christmas classics they ran ads for the on-site floral arrangement business.) Yippeeeee!

Arise, Oh Glorious Zion indeed!

Can you connect the dots for me on what you are saying here? What about the light display and the Roof Restaurant offend you? Maybe there is an obvious reference that I am missing. Can you elaborate for my benefit?

[myboynoah]

Who knows the truth, but I wouldn't be surprised if Europe is an outflow area. It all comes down to government social welfare programs. Where there are strong programs, the need for fast offering funds will be kept down, hence the net outflow.

I've served as ward clerk in the U.S. and France, in wards with soft Bishops (people moved into the ward for that reason) and hard-ass Bishops. No doubt the system in the U.S. teams with waste and abuse (at least from what I saw under the soft Bishops).

In France we hardly used any fast offering funds, and when we did, they were put to "interesting" use (we once paid for an airline ticket). The reason being that French social security was good enough that there was no need to use fast offering funds. Sadly, those in real need (illegal immigrants) were not given assistance because French law dictated that any person or organization that gave financial support to such automatically became financially liable to support those individuals during their sojourn in France. The Church was not willing to take that on. Our very poor ward had a net outflow, hence I have no doubt that all of France did as well. I wonder if the rest of Western Europe isn't the same.

[myboynoah]

My stake is a Net Positive for Fast Offerings right now with 3 wards in the negative. Keep in mind that my stake covers the city of Detroit and Michigan is at almost 10% unemployment

You need to get that 10% out of their $700K homes.

[Surfah]

When I clerked we were always in the black with regards to fast offerings. There were occasions when we'd pay a utility bill or rent. These were all relatively small expenses. I think the most was rent for $500 once. But I can't recall ever issuing a check for a mortgage. Fast offerings were an interesting thing to count really. The generosity of many surprised me.

[myboynoah]

I wonder how many Bishops are making $5000+ house payments in December for $700K+ homes in Draper and Highland and such.

Take heart. A good friend whose husband left her, and she just lost her job, is in financial distress, but the good Bishop is holding strong and has told her that "there are limits to the support from the church." I don't know the details, but fast offering funds will not be going to pay for her broken down home there in Sandy. She'll need to find that somewhere else. But there will be plenty of Deseret Mills cream of wheat to eat.

[BlueHair]

I really wish the church would flip tithing and fast offerings. Members would donate ten percent to care for the poor and toss in whatever they can to run the church. I would think the church has enough assets and volunteers to run for many years. Maybe they could rent out the church buildings when not in use. There might be some private schools that would be willing to rent church buildings for six to eight hours a day. Those buildings are under utilized in my opinion.

[TripletDaddy]

Question for those that have clerked, bishoped, etc....

It seems that in this thread, "fast offerings" and "tithing" are being used interchangeably.

I was under the assumption that fast offerings went towards food, whereas tithing was used to fund ward budgets, out of which misc items such as rent, a medical bill, specific one-off needs for members, etc. were paid.

Is it all just lumped together? Are fast offerings used to pay the rent for a ward member?

is there really a way to track it?

[Surfah]

Question for those that have clerked, bishoped, etc....

It seems that in this thread, "fast offerings" and "tithing" are being used interchangeably.

I was under the assumption that fast offerings went towards food, whereas tithing was used to fund ward budgets, out of which misc items such as rent, a medical bill, specific one-off needs for members, etc. were paid.

Is it all just lumped together? Are fast offerings used to pay the rent for a ward member?

is there really a way to track it?

It's all lumped together in the sense that it is deposited together, but it is accounted for separately. It is tracked. And temporal needs like you described can only be drawn from fast offerings.

[The Rambam]

I wonder that too. But do we have any reason to think that this is the case? I can tell you that my father was the bishop of the ward I grew up in when I was pretty young and that he has related the story of making a couple of very hefty house payments for a member of the ward at one time. He also said that prior to that this well off family had footed the bill for several missionaries alone and had made massive contributions not just through tithing but also for particulars needs when called upon, always anonymously, and always generously and willingly. So when their time of need came, the church helped. Can we really say that was wrong?

The point I'm making here is that I think you are jumping to a fairly cynical conclusion on this. I agree that the funds that members give are sacred and should be used wisely. But there are an awful lot of very tenuously supported assumptions that go into the conclusion that the church is unfairly supported wealthy people who are overextending themselves.

I agree wholeheartedly that there are instances where it is appropriate to make a huge house payment on a McMansion out of fast offering funds. But the exception probably proves the rule.

As it happens one of my good friends spent two years in Nairobi attached to the embassy and he returned with some very interesting comments. The first was that welfare is impossible to administer there because EVERYONE would be participating. He is a very what I consider to be orthodox Mormon and he became very jaded in his views of the members in that country. Every week he was approached by half a dozen people for a loan, requesting a favor, wanting something. There were some good members there, but most of them were there to get a handout of some kind. So the assumption that there is money that we could more effectively be throwing at saints in other part of the world is not always a correct one.

I don't disagree, again, that we should use all of the funds wisely. But I do believe that this is what is being attempted and that less than a full factual understanding of the constraints we (the church) operate under in these places may lead to conclusions that are not well supported.

That it is difficult doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. And the Church isn't even trying. We send a bunch of aid after an earthquake or some other disaster. We now give student loans in a few places via the wonderful PEF. But we don't even try to be a humanitarian relief organization. We have the funds to be one of the biggest and most effective on the planet. But we use the funds to buy big ranches and farms in the midwest. I do wonder why we don't even try to help those in perpetual need.

Can you connect the dots for me on what you are saying here? What about the light display and the Roof Restaurant offend you? Maybe there is an obvious reference that I am missing. Can you elaborate for my benefit?

I was walking through the Joseph Smith Memorial Building the other day at lunchtime. There were about 5 sets of older couple missionaries around the lobby greeting people--all dressed to the nines. There was live music--a grand piano and a violin being played. The lobby is nicer than the vast majority of five star hotels I have been in from New York to Hong Kong. I look around at that opulence and I do cringe. It is sad to me that the Church hosts a gorge yourself buffet for 36 bucks on the top floor. The choices the Church makes reflect its values and I wonder, isn't there a better message the Church could be sending.

Now don't get me wrong--I love opulence as much as the next guy. I want my daughters brought on dates to Temple Square at Christmas time to hear the live music and see the lights and eat the delicate pastries as they look down on what our pioneer ancestors wrought through so much sacrifice.

But today there are so many of our brothers and sisters who suffer. Some are in the far flung corners of the world, some are nearby. I don't think the Church is doing near enough. I am with Mormon on this one.

Mormon wrote to the members of the Church in our day in his final chapters. He said it better than I can in chapter 8:

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel [from Abercrombie and American Eagle and Gap], unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches [like the amazing new Temples in Draper and Daybreak and the opulent Joseph Smith Memorial Building], more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted [so you won't fund a homeless shelter in Utah County and refuse to consider innovative solutions like a church-wide self-funded health insurance plan].

. . .

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not? [the 100% LDS Provo city counsel opposed a homeless shelter for over a decade because it "would only attract more homeless people" and we wouldn't want to keep others who needed to be kept warm and fed, sheltered and nourished. They have now relented to allow zoning, but refuse to provide funds.]