Is the LDS Church now resigned to its history?

[SeattleUte]

Yeah, I doubt we'd disagree much on this topic. I don't know if Quinn was "blackballed," but he definitely bears the weight of unfair baggage. The fact that donors are involved at all - even if it's through unofficial communications - is a shame.

Also, the problem Quinn faced is that the competition for those jobs is so fierce that it doesn't take much to scuttle an application. Not a heavy hand on the scale, certainly.

[LA Ute]

How much reliable evidence do we have that there was donor pressure? I am not disputing or even doubting that it occurred, but I hate to see people assuming major facts without some reliable supporting evidence.

[Solon]

Slate has a looooong article about D. Michael Quinn

Sad story.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2012/11/d_michael_quinn_and_mormon_excommunication_the_complicated_life_of_a_mormon.single.html

[Moliere]

Slate has a looooong article about D. Michael Quinn

Sad story.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f...on.single.html

I saw that and read it earlier today. It was a good read. Some things I learned:

• There was no voluntary process to remove your name of the church prior to the 1970s. This was only made possible after someone sued the church over this issue.
• The excommunications for the people that were "baseball baptized" had to follow the formal excommunication process due to the above
• Quinn is releasing a third (and final) book in his "Heirarchy" series in 2013, which will focus on the church's business dealings
• Two of the September 6 have been rebaptized (I thought it was only 1)

[Green Monstah]

That's a pretty depressing article. I feel badly for the guy. I've never read his books, but from what I've heard, he's no hack.

[Moliere]

That's a pretty depressing article. I feel badly for the guy. I've never read his books, but from what I've heard, he's no hack.

I've read "Origins" and I'm currently reading "Extensions" and they are heavy reading both historically and jus because of the volume of information. They aren't nearly as troubling as I thought they would be.

[CardiacCoug]

Slate has a looooong article about D. Michael Quinn

Sad story.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f...on.single.html

I love the "You can't stage manage a grizzly bear" line supposedly from DHO about BKP. Good stuff.

This is obvious but also spot on:

Packer’s notion that those writing church history should share only those things that are “faith-promoting” is not just intellectually offensive now—it has become quaint, the relic of a time when information was not so freely available.

[Northwestcoug]

I just finished the article. Very long but well-written. I didn't know about the lack of a formal resignation process either, and Quinn's association with baseball baptisms is interesting.

I am very sympathetic towards Quinn. However, I'm not sure what to do with the last ~15 years of his life. No doubt he was blackballed somewhat the first few years after he resigned from BYU. But I'm not sure his failure at getting a university position later on can be fully attributed to the long arm of the church.

His post-manifesto polygamy work and Mormon Heirarchy series are hugely influential. But I wonder about his same-sex dynamics in early church history work. It seems like a huge overreach. Bruce Van Orden at the Y was a friend and colleague of Quinn's. If you knew him, he was probably the only democrat in the religion department, and very sympathetic to Quinn' problems with the church. He told us one day that he had told Quinn that he was just plain wrong with his assertions in the same-sex dynamics paper.

I haven't read it and I know it won an award. But I can't help but wonder if it was a huge overreach, and it played a part in him not being able to find steady academic work later on. It doesn't sound like he hasn't produced much academic work after this, which may have played a part in universities being hesitant hiring an older man. I don't know about this, just supposition on my part.

But I will aim both barrels at the Heirarchy of the church at that time. Quinn should have never been placed in a position to choose between truth and active membership in the church. It was probably going to end ugly anyways, due to his coming out. But it was an embarrassment to the church and BYU that he was punished and ostracized for telling the truth.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I just finished the article. Very long but well-written. I didn't know about the lack of a formal resignation process either, and Quinn's association with baseball baptisms is interesting.

I am very sympathetic towards Quinn. However, I'm not sure what to do with the last ~15 years of his life. No doubt he was blackballed somewhat the first few years after he resigned from BYU. But I'm not sure his failure at getting a university position later on can be fully attributed to the long arm of the church.

His post-manifesto polygamy work and Mormon Heirarchy series are hugely influential. But I wonder about his same-sex dynamics in early church history work. It seems like a huge overreach. Bruce Van Orden at the Y was a friend and colleague of Quinn's. If you knew him, he was probably the only democrat in the religion department, and very sympathetic to Quinn' problems with the church. He told us one day that he had told Quinn that he was just plain wrong with his assertions in the same-sex dynamics paper.

I haven't read it and I know it won an award. But I can't help but wonder if it was a huge overreach, and it played a part in him not being able to find steady academic work later on. It doesn't sound like he hasn't produced much academic work after this, which may have played a part in universities being hesitant hiring an older man. I don't know about this, just supposition on my part.

But I will aim both barrels at the Heirarchy of the church at that time. Quinn should have never been placed in a position to choose between truth and active membership in the church. It was probably going to end ugly anyways, due to his coming out. But it was an embarrassment to the church and BYU that he was punished and ostracized for telling the truth.

Yes, great article (thanks for the link, Solon).

Definitely agree with your last paragraph. History has vindicated Quinn. If you haven't read his essay "On Being a Mormon Historian", you should definitely check it out. Brilliant analysis and a very courageous statement at the time.

[Pheidippides]

I read the article yesterday and was pretty mad at BKP. This is nothing new for me, but I believe I actually called him an evil man last night in my conversation with SHW. I don't know if I'd go that far this morning but he has me wondering if I'm playing for the wrong religious team sometimes.

[Tim]

Slate has a looooong article about D. Michael Quinn

Sad story.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f...on.single.html

Thanks for sharing this. Great read!

[Moliere]

I read the article yesterday and was pretty mad at BKP. This is nothing new for me, but I believe I actually called him an evil man last night in my conversation with SHW. I don't know if I'd go that far this morning but he has me wondering if I'm playing for the wrong religious team sometimes.

I know we've discussed this before, but I truly wonder what will happen if he becomes the prophet. I guess at this point in his life he's so incapacitated that most wouldn't have an issue with it, but there are many both in the church and out of it that don't like him. He is the hard-liner of hard-liners, but thankfully he's also seemed to mellow a bit over the years.

We have been blessed with some really good prophets during my lifetime. I don't remember Benson much as he was pretty much incapacitated when I was old enough to watch conference. Hunter as well. Hinckley was a great PR guy and I loved him (and still do) even though he could hard line some things. It took me a while to warm up to Monson, but I truly love his life theme, which is to help the poor, widowed, and needy...and shopping of course . Monson seems to really practice pure religion.

[Pheidippides]

I know we've discussed this before, but I truly wonder what will happen if he becomes the prophet. I guess at this point in his life he's so incapacitated that most wouldn't have an issue with it, but there are many both in the church and out of it that don't like him. He is the hard-liner of hard-liners, but thankfully he's also seemed to mellow a bit over the years.

We have been blessed with some really good prophets during my lifetime. I don't remember Benson much as he was pretty much incapacitated when I was old enough to watch conference. Hunter as well. Hinckley was a great PR guy and I loved him (and still do) even though he could hard line some things. It took me a while to warm up to Monson, but I truly love his life theme, which is to help the poor, widowed, and needy...and shopping of course . Monson seems to really practice pure religion.

Any complaints I've had about Monson and Hinckley are minor at best and unworthy of mentioning in light of them overall. Quinn makes the point that Hinckley effectively ran the church from the early 80s, and if you read his chronology in the back of his second Hierarchy book it appears as though GBH was masterful at consensus building and harmonious relationships.

I used to hate TSM's talks. They never had any nifty doctrine or catchy statements. Of course, at the time I was a MoDoc (first edition) Mormon. Now I agree with you. He represents most of what is good in Christianity, and DFU brings out the rest. I kind of feel like now is a golden age in that respect - hopefully it will trickle down to local leaders.

Based on what I now know about HWH, I wish he would have been around longer. I think he would have done well. And other than The Miracle of Forgiveness, SWK was great. The priesthood ban alone gets him a free pass from me.

I maintain that the trifecta of JFieldingS, HBL and BRM were the worst thing to happen to the church in the past century. Add ETB the apostle in there too.

I think BKP is not spry enough to do much damage in the event he outlives TSM, which I don't think he will. But as I told my wife last night I am at a loss when trying to come up with his positive contributions. Maybe opening Japan so I could serve there. I can come up with a laundry list of negatives.

The one that scares me is Bednar. I frankly don't like him at all. I'm past caring too much about what he says, though - Imma worship according to the dictates of my own conscience, let him preach how, where or what he may.

Quinn is actually much less complementary of DOM than his other biographers were. Presents an interesting contrast.

[Levin]

Any complaints I've had about Monson and Hinckley are minor at best and unworthy of mentioning in light of them overall. Quinn makes the point that Hinckley effectively ran the church from the early 80s, and if you read his chronology in the back of his second Hierarchy book it appears as though GBH was masterful at consensus building and harmonious relationships.

I used to hate TSM's talks. They never had any nifty doctrine or catchy statements. Of course, at the time I was a MoDoc (first edition) Mormon. Now I agree with you. He represents most of what is good in Christianity, and DFU brings out the rest. I kind of feel like now is a golden age in that respect - hopefully it will trickle down to local leaders.

Based on what I now know about HWH, I wish he would have been around longer. I think he would have done well. And other than The Miracle of Forgiveness, SWK was great. The priesthood ban alone gets him a free pass from me.

I maintain that the trifecta of JFieldingS, HBL and BRM were the worst thing to happen to the church in the past century. Add ETB the apostle in there too.

I think BKP is not spry enough to do much damage in the event he outlives TSM, which I don't think he will. But as I told my wife last night I am at a loss when trying to come up with his positive contributions. Maybe opening Japan so I could serve there. I can come up with a laundry list of negatives.

The one that scares me is Bednar. I frankly don't like him at all. I'm past caring too much about what he says, though - Imma worship according to the dictates of my own conscience, let him preach how, where or what he may.

Quinn is actually much less complementary of DOM than his other biographers were. Presents an interesting contrast.

Bednar is going to be prophet for a LONG time, so you should start getting used to the idea. But imma glad you're gonna stay in the tent and worship according to the dictates of your mind.

[Solon]

A lot of the information in that article is also in the "DNA Mormon" essay about Quinn in Mormon Mavericks, but I was unaware of the story about Elder Packer (allegedly) embarrassing Elder Hanks in public. (if it is retold in the Mormon Mavericks essay, it has slipped my attention)

Does anyone know that story?

EDIT: here's the part in the article:

After the Newsweek article ran, Quinn got a phone call from Marion D. Hanks. Hanks—whose nephew Paul would show up on Quinn’s doorstep in 1993—was himself a general authority, and he had overseen the two-year Mormon mission Quinn served in England after his freshman year at BYU. He had become a father figure of sorts, even officiating at Quinn’s marriage ceremony. (He also, as it happens, officiated at the wedding of my parents.) He asked Quinn to come see him in his office after work one day, Quinn says. There he told a story about the time Packer embarrassed him in front of fellow church leaders as apparent payback for a slight from six years before. “Elder Packer,” he told Quinn, “will never get over this.”