Is the LDS Church now resigned to its history?

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  • Solon
    Lost in the flood
    • Nov 2008
    • 5747

    #61
    Anyone who doesn't accept Quinn's credentials as a bona fide historian is up in the night. Criticizing his 'niche' as being too small is not a valid charge. There are some pretty ridiculously specific historians out there. Plus, Quinn's work has been instrumental in the wider context of studying 19th century millenarian movements in the US, of which Mormonism was one of several. It's not like his work inhabits a vacuum.

    In addition to uncovering and adapting innovative primary source materials (whether he was filching them from the COB or going through library manifestos in upstate NY), he is the de facto founder of the New Mormon History movement. Although we might trace the origins back to Brooks or Brodie (or, maybe Arrington, although haltingly), it was Quinn's voluminous writings, backed with mammoth footnotes that really brought Mormon Studies into its own in an academic format. So, not only is he a competent historian, he has fundamentally altered the course of Mormon historiography, and its attendant relationships to US history, Western history, and Religious Studies. To some degree, the contemporary successes of Bushman and Givens are because of Quinn's heavy-lifting.

    I have first-hand knowledge of how Quinn was considered for and ultimately denied the position in Utah history at the U of U after the untimely death of Dean May. Some of the department, like SU, criticized the choice of publisher for his books. Others worried about how long he had been out of a university. I do not wish to suggest that these are illegitimate objections.

    But the biggest problem was the fear he would be a lightning rod for controversy, and there was pressure brought be certain high-profile LDS donors. Plus, the U was raising money for that Tanner Humanities building at the time . . .

    So, it's not like he was the unanimous choice and then this choice was overridden by a donor. Obviously, the department was free to make its own decision. There were a lot of factors at play. But none of the criticisms ever suggested he was less than a first-rate historian.

    Tangentially, I think Quinn's work on same-sex dynamics, which is often overlooked, will become more relevant in light of current social trends. Plus, it's a U. of Illinois press, so that should get it some street cred. around here.
    "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
    -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

    Comment

    • creekster
      It is NOT a monkey!
      • Nov 2008
      • 22661

      #62
      Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
      This argument might be the strangest thing I've ever seen here.
      really? not sure if it makes my top ten.
      PLesa excuse the tpyos.

      Comment

      • wuapinmon
        Soul Plumber
        • Dec 2008
        • 30711

        #63
        Originally posted by Solon View Post
        Obviously, the department was free to make its own decision.
        Really? It's been my experience that the President and the Dean of the Faculty get the final say before voting by the Board of Trustees. The Department might've wanted him (had they), but with so much at stake, I'd imagine it would be an easy thing for a suit to say "no."
        "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
        The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

        Comment

        • ERCougar
          Junior Member
          • Nov 2008
          • 10978

          #64
          Originally posted by Solon View Post
          But the biggest problem was the fear he would be a lightning rod for controversy, and there was pressure brought be certain high-profile LDS donors. Plus, the U was raising money for that Tanner Humanities building at the time . . .
          <cough> <cough> LA...<cough> <cough>
          At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
          -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

          Comment

          • LA Ute
            Receiver of Memory
            • Nov 2008
            • 19512

            #65
            Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
            <cough> <cough> LA...<cough> <cough>
            “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
            ― W.H. Auden


            "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
            -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


            "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
            --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

            Comment

            • Solon
              Lost in the flood
              • Nov 2008
              • 5747

              #66
              Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
              Really? It's been my experience that the President and the Dean of the Faculty get the final say before voting by the Board of Trustees. The Department might've wanted him (had they), but with so much at stake, I'd imagine it would be an easy thing for a suit to say "no."
              I'm sorry for being unclear. What I meant is that there was no mandate about Quinn from on-high. The opinions and pressures were just one part of the discussion-process. The department itself was quite divided (from what I know).
              "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
              -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

              Comment

              • wuapinmon
                Soul Plumber
                • Dec 2008
                • 30711

                #67
                Originally posted by Solon View Post
                I'm sorry for being unclear. What I meant is that there was no mandate about Quinn from on-high. The opinions and pressures were just one part of the discussion-process. The department itself was quite divided (from what I know).
                Ever read this book? I always get Quinn's name and this author's name confused.



                This was a fun read.
                "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
                The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

                Comment

                • UtahDan
                  *
                  • Nov 2008
                  • 14496

                  #68
                  Originally posted by creekster View Post
                  really? not sure if it makes my top ten.
                  Less the subject matter than who is arguing what.

                  Comment

                  • creekster
                    It is NOT a monkey!
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 22661

                    #69
                    Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
                    Less the subject matter than who is arguing what.
                    I know what you mean but, really, they were both being pretty consistent.
                    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

                    Comment

                    • Solon
                      Lost in the flood
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 5747

                      #70
                      Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
                      Ever read this book? I always get Quinn's name and this author's name confused.
                      This was a fun read.
                      Great title. I'll have to check it out.

                      I can't remember the exact quote, but Edward Abbey had a line in The Monkeywrench Gang about people who use that initial-middle-name style of self-address. It wasn't a flattering line.
                      "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
                      -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

                      Comment

                      • SeattleUte
                        Faith crisis consultant
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 20837

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Solon View Post
                        Anyone who doesn't accept Quinn's credentials as a bona fide historian is up in the night. Criticizing his 'niche' as being too small is not a valid charge. There are some pretty ridiculously specific historians out there. Plus, Quinn's work has been instrumental in the wider context of studying 19th century millenarian movements in the US, of which Mormonism was one of several. It's not like his work inhabits a vacuum.

                        In addition to uncovering and adapting innovative primary source materials (whether he was filching them from the COB or going through library manifestos in upstate NY), he is the de facto founder of the New Mormon History movement. Although we might trace the origins back to Brooks or Brodie (or, maybe Arrington, although haltingly), it was Quinn's voluminous writings, backed with mammoth footnotes that really brought Mormon Studies into its own in an academic format. So, not only is he a competent historian, he has fundamentally altered the course of Mormon historiography, and its attendant relationships to US history, Western history, and Religious Studies. To some degree, the contemporary successes of Bushman and Givens are because of Quinn's heavy-lifting.

                        I have first-hand knowledge of how Quinn was considered for and ultimately denied the position in Utah history at the U of U after the untimely death of Dean May. Some of the department, like SU, criticized the choice of publisher for his books. Others worried about how long he had been out of a university. I do not wish to suggest that these are illegitimate objections.

                        But the biggest problem was the fear he would be a lightning rod for controversy, and there was pressure brought be certain high-profile LDS donors. Plus, the U was raising money for that Tanner Humanities building at the time . . .

                        So, it's not like he was the unanimous choice and then this choice was overridden by a donor. Obviously, the department was free to make its own decision. There were a lot of factors at play. But none of the criticisms ever suggested he was less than a first-rate historian.

                        Tangentially, I think Quinn's work on same-sex dynamics, which is often overlooked, will become more relevant in light of current social trends. Plus, it's a U. of Illinois press, so that should get it some street cred. around here.
                        For the record, I never suggested that he was anything less than a first rate historian. But your last four paragraphs overall support what I've been saying.

                        Look at it this way: Should they have given him a job because he was an enemy of BYU? Quinn's personal history was unavoidably a part of his package.
                        When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                        --Jonathan Swift

                        Comment

                        • SeattleUte
                          Faith crisis consultant
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 20837

                          #72
                          Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                          SU, you and I have been repeating ourselves for the past page in this thread so I think I will go ahead and tap out. But I will continue to scratch my head at your passionate defense of heavy-handed wealthy LDS donors.

                          Have a great 4th of July, amigo.
                          For the record, I oppose heavy handed wealthy LDS donors bribing or blackmailing institutions of higher learning otherwise possessing integrity to develop dishonest apologetics about LDS history, if indeed that is what has been happening (which I doubt).
                          When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                          --Jonathan Swift

                          Comment

                          • wuapinmon
                            Soul Plumber
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 30711

                            #73
                            Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                            For the record, I oppose heavy handed wealthy LDS donors bribing or blackmailing institutions of higher learning otherwise possessing integrity to develop dishonest apologetics about LDS history, if indeed that is what has been happening (which I doubt).
                            Don't doubt, man. You'd be amazed the power that the wealthiest donors have.
                            "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
                            The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

                            Comment

                            • Solon
                              Lost in the flood
                              • Nov 2008
                              • 5747

                              #74
                              Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                              For the record, I never suggested that he was anything less than a first rate historian. But your last four paragraphs overall support what I've been saying.

                              Look at it this way: Should they have given him a job because he was an enemy of BYU? Quinn's personal history was unavoidably a part of his package.
                              Yeah, I doubt we'd disagree much on this topic. I don't know if Quinn was "blackballed," but he definitely bears the weight of unfair baggage. The fact that donors are involved at all - even if it's through unofficial communications - is a shame.
                              "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
                              -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

                              Comment

                              • SeattleUte
                                Faith crisis consultant
                                • Nov 2008
                                • 20837

                                #75
                                Originally posted by Solon View Post
                                Yeah, I doubt we'd disagree much on this topic. I don't know if Quinn was "blackballed," but he definitely bears the weight of unfair baggage. The fact that donors are involved at all - even if it's through unofficial communications - is a shame.
                                It's the nature of the world we live in. In a free society where universities' work is not owned and controlled by church or government, donations are crucial to the continuation of the work. As you know, the ethical issue you raise is not unique to LDS high rollers. On the contrary, it has come up repeately, for example, vis-a-vis corporte donors, and governments with poor human rights records that have given vast sums to universities, including Saudi Arabia and other oil rich dictatorships. Fortunately, universities have long had internal mechanisms to guard against such external interferance by donors in the universities' honest scholarship and I sense they do a pretty good job of it.
                                When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                                --Jonathan Swift

                                Comment

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