Religion is Personal

[Indy Coug]

Sooner, you don't talk up agnosticism. You really don't. You talk down Mormonism. When I served as a missionary, I talked up Mormonism, I didn't talk down any other faith. I still try to stick to that basic approach today.

If you are interested in getting more people to be on your theological/ideological side, do a better job marketing your viewpoints.

[DrumNFeather]

It seems to me like you are talking about two different types of proselytizing here.

First, you have the full-time missionaries. Their job description is simple and straight forward they are to knock on doors and teach people about the gospel and yes, to seek to find converts.

Second, you have the "every-member a missionary" group...which is everyone else that is in the church and has to live their religion among (in many cases) mostly non-members. I don't think that the every member a missionary charge is a proselytizing charge. I think it is more of a you are who you are and when an opportunity arises for friendly discussion, you engage. You don't push, you don't even testify perse, and when you do talk, it is respectful and you listen to what the other person has to say as much as you want them to listen to what you have to say.

Some will tell you that Religion, as a set of ideas, shouldn't be personal at all. I don't believe that. I think one's faith is highly personal and that is why you have to proceed with caution when discussing religions matters with others. That doesn't mean you can't be open, honest, or frank with them, it just means that you have to be cognizant that others might take offense if you are too pushy or overt or angry in what you are saying to them or whatever the point is you might be trying to make.

[SoonerCoug]

If you are interested in getting more people to be on your theological/ideological side, do a better job marketing your viewpoints.

I'm not interested in marketing or converting people. I don't care what you believe. That's one difference between you and me.

[PaloAltoCougar]

You and PAC make me wonder if this is more of a generational question.

To you older CUFFERS: Was Sunday School different back in the 60s and 70s? I was but an ovum. Have things been simplified and watered down? Or is that just my perception?

I agree with my esteemed colleague, '71, that it may have been more uptight in my youth, but DOM and Hubie Brown were on their way out and things were transitioning to JFS and BRM. Overall, I tend to think there is nothing new under the sun, and the Church has always wrestled with being protective of the faith (and taking offense at outsiders mocking/criticizing) on the one hand, and being receptive/welcoming to outsiders while being able to endure all things on the other.

[Indy Coug]

I'm not interested in marketing or converting people. I don't care what you believe. That's one difference between you and me.

OK, so then you are really discussing the reaction of people when they are being intentionally provoked into giving a reaction. Did you meet Pavlov when you were in Russia?

[SoonerCoug]

OK, so then you are really discussing the reaction of people when they are being intentionally provoked into giving a reaction. Did you meet Pavlov when you were in Russia?

I like to discuss. I don't discuss with intent to convert.

[smokymountainrain]

Can Mormons dish it out but not take it?

Here's what I mean:

I recently had a conversation with a Mormon about proselytizing. He told me how offensive he thought it was that I flaunt my agnosticism.

I responded: "I'm not trying to convert anyone to agnosticism. I'm just admitting my personal agnosticism. You are constantly trying to get me to go to Church, but when have I ever asked you NOT to go to Church? When have I ever invited you to become an agnostic like me?"

He said: "Well then you should avoid talking about religion altogether. People find it offensive."

I said: "I was sent by the LDS Church to Russia for two years in order to talk about religion with people. Are you telling me that it was OK for me to talk about religion and even try to convert people when I was promoting LDS theology, but now that I'm openly agnostic, it's not OK for me to share my beliefs with people anymore?"

He said: "Yes, that's what I'm telling you. Religion is personal, and people find your beliefs to be offensive. And what you did on your mission was different. On your mission, you were inviting people to a better life."

I'm a little perplexed by this, and I think there is a huge double standard within Mormonism. If religion is so personal that I should not talk about it, then why was I sent on a mission? I think this is primarily a reflection of the fact that many Mormons fear discussion, and also that they refuse to accept a diversity of viewpoints.

Like PAC, I rarely dish it out and like PAC and '71, I can take it, in fact I enjoy "taking it".

I'll go out on a limb and say your mormon buddy is an outlier.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Mormons can't win for losing on this one. If I had a guess, it would be that you just want Mormons to shut up. I feel that myself from time to time, but right now Mormons are in a real bind:

On the one hand, the LDS Church that has had Mormons so busy with Church activities is now heaping guilt on those same Mormons for being so busy with Church activities. Mormons' social isolation has been strongly influenced by leadership's decisions, yet leadership turns it's own lack of vision into yet another vehicle for guilt.

On the other hand, media, coworkers, friends, and neighbors are raising questions about Mormon history, culture, and practices like they haven't since the Smoot hearings. Broadway has a play about Mormons, and they are all over the media, and yet you would have Mormons keep religious conversations to themselves? Wow. You're a piece of work.

[SoonerCoug]

Mormons can't win for losing on this one. If I had a guess, it would be that you just want Mormons to shut up. I feel that myself from time to time, but right now Mormons are in a real bind:

On the one hand, the LDS Church that has had Mormons so busy with Church activities is now heaping guilt on those same Mormons for being so busy with Church activities. Mormons' social isolation has been strongly influenced by leadership's decisions, yet leadership turns it's own lack of vision into yet another vehicle for guilt.

On the other hand, media, coworkers, friends, and neighbors are raising questions about Mormon history, culture, and practices like they haven't since the Smoot hearings. Broadway has a play about Mormons, and they are all over the media, and yet you would have Mormons keep religious conversations to themselves? Wow. You're a piece of work.

I don't think I was making an argument that Mormons should not proselytize. I think I was arguing that there should be more open discussion and acceptance of varying viewpoints. Like you said, you were guessing when you said that I would want Mormons to shut up. You guessed wrong.

Please point out where I said that I want Mormons to shut up.

However, I wouldn't mind if we Mormons were less aggressive in proselytizing.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't think I was making an argument that Mormons should not proselytize. I think I was arguing that there should be more open discussion and acceptance of varying viewpoints. Like you said, you were guessing when you said that I would want Mormons to shut up. You guessed wrong.

Please point out where I said that I want Mormons to shut up.

However, I wouldn't mind if we Mormons were less aggressive in proselytizing.

I don't think your associate's views (agnostics should shut up) are widely held in the LDS community.

[SoonerCoug]

I don't think your associate's views (agnostics should shut up) are widely held in the LDS community.

Maybe you're right.

On a side note, I bumped into a prominent professor of the BYU College of Life Sciences the other day. He told me that he was sure they'd make a faculty position available for me in a few years while also allowing me to keep a clinic. Wouldn't that be a hoot! Only problem is the poor job security with the whole ecclesiastical endorsement problem.

Also, I'm impressed by the new building. What's it going to be named? They should name it after a woman.

[Sleeping in EQ]

I don't think I was making an argument that Mormons should not proselytize. I think I was arguing that there should be more open discussion and acceptance of varying viewpoints. Like you said, you were guessing when you said that I would want Mormons to shut up. You guessed wrong.

Please point out where I said that I want Mormons to shut up.

However, I wouldn't mind if we Mormons were less aggressive in proselytizing.

SC, when you go with a thread title such as "Religion is personal," suggest Mormons want agnostics to shut up, and then come back with wanting Mormons to be "less aggressive in proselytizing," in our current, Mormon-obsessed media environment, a reasonable person can conclude that you want Mormons to shut up.

[SoonerCoug]

SC, when you go with a thread title such as "Religion is personal," suggest Mormons want agnostics to shut up, and then come back with wanting Mormons to be "less aggressive in proselytizing," in our current, Mormon-obsessed media environment, a reasonable person can conclude that you want Mormons to shut up.

Dude. I watch "I'm a Mormon" ads for fun. I love that stuff. Super entertaining. I want more of it.

[TripletDaddy]

I want to make it very clear that I believe that SoonerCoug actually had this alleged conversation and that his friend really does exist. I know some of you don't believe him, but I do.

[SeattleUte]

I agree with my esteemed colleague, '71, that it may have been more uptight in my youth, but DOM and Hubie Brown were on their way out and things were transitioning to JFS and BRM. Overall, I tend to think there is nothing new under the sun, and the Church has always wrestled with being protective of the faith (and taking offense at outsiders mocking/criticizing) on the one hand, and being deceptive/welcoming to outsiders while being able to endure all things on the other.

FIFY