Gay and Mormon: BYU hosted panel for gay BYU students

[Moliere]

LOL at BYU's Rosa Parks moment. It is indeed 1955 at the byu with regards to homosexuality. Meanwhile, every respectable academic institution in America has managed to enter the 21st century. This is a university we're talking about, right? And we're supposed to be impressed they didn't grab the students off the stage for electroshock therapy?

The more I consider it, I think it's a stroke of genius by the byu administration. Be so repressive and backwards that even the slimmest ray of progressive thought will be welcomed as a giant step. It's a page straight out of North Korea's playbook. I'm looking for Bronco to start kidnapping blue-chippers instead of recruiting them.

This post is beneath you.

Look, this is a huge step for the church. Two years ago these kids would have been kicked out of school and maybe even the church for even coming out as gay. BYU is now holding a forum for them to discuss SGA openly and honestly. A lot of groundwork was laid before this happened, and I think this forum will be THE event that helps to normalize SGA in the minds of BYU students. And remember, these students will be the leaders of the church soon. Sure the church is behind the times and still a bit backwards, but it's making progress.

I'd also argue the BYU is not as backward as everyone makes it seem. Support for gay marriage is about 50/50 in the USA.

[Solon]

North Korea? Really?

I am surprised by your reaction in this thread, Solon. You usually approach these things with a lot more nuance and leave the highly simplistic, blunt force response to SU.

Sure, anything related to BYU/LDS treatment of homosexuality is an easy target for mocking and ridicule. Knock yourself out. But some of us are still inclined to cheer for progress when it happens.

Sorry to disappoint you.

I thoroughly applaud the courage of these students. As I said before, I hope the rewards for them outweigh the risks they took.

IMO, some of my cougar friends are so close to the school in their own identities that they have trouble stepping back and seeing how far away from academia's norm the byu is on this issue. These students (according to the blogged transcript) were careful not to say anything that questioned church doctrine or to advocate behavior contrary to the honor-code. We already know it's okay to be gay as long as you're celibate or hetero-married. So, what did we gain? Maybe just putting a human face to the idea? I suppose that's impactful, but I'm not about to applaud the byu for doing just a smidge of what it's supposed to. Again, though, I applaud the students who have spoke. And I applaud any byu students who went away from that meeting more tolerant or open-minded. But the institution overall deserves the scorn.

Obviously I'm in favor of progress, whether in big steps or small.

[SoonerCoug]

I'm going to have to agree with Solon on the North Korea analogy.

[Jeff Lebowski]

IMO, some of my cougar friends are so close to the school in their own identities that they have trouble stepping back and seeing how far away from academia's norm the byu is on this issue.

You have got to be kidding. This is your big revelation for us? That when it comes to religious issues, BYU is different than other academic institutions? Do you honestly think we are that ignorant?

[UtahDan]

Progressives v. Exmos. The debate in this thread is playing out SO many different places. Progressives are connecting more and more with each other, they are beginning to feel like there is some momentum toward progress. They feel like the messages are getting through, that they are persuasive and things like this feel like real evidence that they are right. A lot of the ones I know, some here, feel like there is good reason to hope that progress might happen at a much more rapid rate than in the past.

A lot of the exmos are ambivalent. On the one hand no one wants to say that progress is a bad thing. On the other hand, most of them have been progressive at some point and ran out of patience waiting for change to happen. The are a lot more skeptical about whether change can happen because it is not easy to point to concrete changes yet. They also feel that some of the things the progressives are excited about actually create a false sense of hope for people who would really be happier and better off if they just got it over with and left (if possible).

This issue exemplifies it. This thing at BYU is great. How can anyone see it as a negative? You point to this as progress from the progressive perspective. The number of people who show up in support seems like a good sign and feels like nice momentum and progress. From the exmo side, I think it is fair to ask, progress towards what? What progress could the LDS church ever make theologically that would make it a psychologically good and safe place for gay people to be?

What it fundamentally comes down to is who is right about how much the church can or will change.

[tooblue]

probably.

Hey, DDD is the one who brought up Rosa Parks.

Funny as hell.

Looks like what you really are waiting for is a Claudette Colvin in all of this? Regardless, your scorn is not something you should be proud of IMO. The great paradise of academia you revere is more often a bastion for some of the most irrationally hateful and bigoted individuals I have ever encountered, missionary evangelicals included. The collective ignorance I have personally witnessed was so thoroughly discouraging it was almost debilitating.

I have no idea whether this event at BYU was momentous or, even really important. But, please be more careful with your disdain. You risk greatly trivializing the courage of the people who acted as the objects of curiosity at this forum and least of all the good people who chose to attend it, to listen and with the intent to at least try to understand.

[SeattleUte]

Progressives v. Exmos. The debate in this thread is playing out SO many different places. Progressives are connecting more and more with each other, they are beginning to feel like there is some momentum toward progress. They feel like the messages are getting through, that they are persuasive and things like this feel like real evidence that they are right. A lot of the ones I know, some here, feel like there is good reason to hope that progress might happen at a much more rapid rate than in the past.

A lot of the exmos are ambivalent. On the one hand no one wants to say that progress is a bad thing. On the other hand, most of them have been progressive at some point and ran out of patience waiting for change to happen. The are a lot more skeptical about whether change can happen because it is not easy to point to concrete changes yet. They also feel that some of the things the progressives are excited about actually create a false sense of hope for people who would really be happier and better off if they just got it over with and left (if possible).

This issue exemplifies it. This thing at BYU is great. How can anyone see it as a negative? You point to this as progress from the progressive perspective. The number of people who show up in support seems like a good sign and feels like nice momentum and progress. From the exmo side, I think it is fair to ask, progress towards what? What progress could the LDS church ever make theologically that would make it a psychologically good and safe place for gay people to be?

What it fundamentally comes down to is who is right about how much the church can or will change.

Progessivemos are jellyfish. I'd rather be in a foxhole with Tex.

[SeattleUte]

LOL at BYU's Rosa Parks moment. It is indeed 1955 at the byu with regards to homosexuality. Meanwhile, every respectable academic institution in America has managed to enter the 21st century. This is a university we're talking about, right? And we're supposed to be impressed they didn't grab the students off the stage for electroshock therapy?

The more I consider it, I think it's a stroke of genius by the byu administration. Be so repressive and backwards that even the slimmest ray of progressive thought will be welcomed as a giant step. It's a page straight out of North Korea's playbook. I'm looking for Bronco to start kidnapping blue-chippers instead of recruiting them.

GREAT POST.

[Solon]

You have got to be kidding. This is your big revelation for us? That when it comes to religious issues, BYU is different than other academic institutions? Do you honestly think we are that ignorant?

I think, with respect to this issue, you guys are uncomfortable that you went to this school, that you send your kids there, that you root for its sports teams, that in some way or another you're part of a school that perpetrates this kind of crap. That's what I think.

[Donuthole]

IMO, some of my cougar friends are so close to the school in their own identities that they have trouble stepping back and seeing how far away from academia's norm the byu is on this issue. These students (according to the blogged transcript) were careful not to say anything that questioned church doctrine or to advocate behavior contrary to the honor-code. We already know it's okay to be gay as long as you're celibate or hetero-married. So, what did we gain? Maybe just putting a human face to the idea? I suppose that's impactful, but I'm not about to applaud the byu for doing just a smidge of what it's supposed to. Again, though, I applaud the students who have spoke.

IMO, some of my needle neck wanker friends are so close to academia in their own identities that they have trouble stepping back and seeing how far away from society's norm academia's norm is on this issue.

Of course, I tried to make this point in another thread and it was ignored by those with whom I was discussing the issue.

Also, the students haven't spoke, they have spoken.

[Pheidippides]

Progessivemos are jellyfish. I'd rather be in a foxhole with Tex.

You, sir, are riding the humor wave like a boss today.

[San Juan Sun]

I think, with respect to this issue, you guys are uncomfortable that you went to this school, that you send your kids there, that you root for its sports teams, that in some way or another you're part of a school that perpetrates this kind of crap. That's what I think.

No, no, no way, and no.

I think it's dangerous to assume what others think, especially regarding this issue. If this forum teaches us nothing else, it seemed that the speakers wanted other BYU students to be more open and understanding. We should do the same here.

[tooblue]

I think, with respect to this issue, you guys are uncomfortable that you went to this school, that you send your kids there, that you root for its sports teams, that in some way or another you're part of a school that perpetrates this kind of crap. That's what I think.

Your school loyalty smack is pathetic. The only "embarrassed" individual here, appears to be you ... the reflection you are seeing is indeed you and not a bunch of BYU grads or fans of their sports teams. That's what I think.

[smokymountainrain]

You, sir, are riding the humor wave like a boss today.

He is absolutely killing it. He's in a zone and can do no wrong.

[SoonerCoug]

Your school loyalty smack is pathetic. The only "embarrassed" individual here, appears to be you ... the reflection you are seeing is indeed you and not a bunch of BYU grads or fans of their sports teams. That's what I think.

I am also embarrassed that I went there, even though it's the best damn school ever, even if it is full of homophobes and religious nutcases. I would be a professor there if I could get an ecclesiastical endorsement and keep it, and also if I didn't need to be at a medical school. I think it would be super entertaining to be able to rock the boat there without risking my job.