Lust

[The Rambam]

In Mormondom we teach very clearly that lusting in your heart is the actual equivalent of adultery (3 Ne. 12:28). We also teach that lusting alone is a denial of the faith leading to your being "cast out" (DC 42:23). The Miracle of Forgiveness--given to every boy who ever felt his girlfriend up and confessed to his bishop during the 80s and 90s--is very clear and dogmatic about this point.

The problem is that heterosexual boys are programmed biologically to lust for girls bodies. We get boners in our sleep and are aroused by boobs involuntarily. It can't be prevented and it isn't voluntary.

So the Church has taught us to avert our eyes and sing hymns when arousal comes. (http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...00176f620a____) This would seem highly likely to create a very odd association between sex and religion. Self-loathing and hatred of arousal is a common result. Lots of frustration at not being able to be righteous enough to resist this mortal sin. Anger at women for being the cause of your spiritual downfall can lead to misogyny.

The Church has seemed to step back from the psychological aversion techniques and degeneracy theory practices it advocated in the 80s and 90s. (Mark E. Peterson's "Steps to Overcoming Masturbation" being a classic in the field.)

But the legacy lives on. In my Elders' Quorum a while back a man going through a divorce taught a lesson on chastity. He said that he had honestly trained himself to be revolted by the sight of an attractive woman. He was proud that he had replaced lust with revulsion. I was not shocked to hear he was getting divorced. But at least he didn't have a masturbation problem--so success, right?

I believe there is a correlation between Mormon YM who take the Church's teachings regarding lust seriously and sexual dysfunction later in life. The degree to which you believe that feeling lust is adultery and will result in your being cast out is the degree to which you are going to be maladjusted sexually and struggle to have a positive healthy sexual relationship later in life.

I think the best odds for having a healthy sexual being for a son is to emphasize respect for women and how wonderful shared sexual experiences can be and deemphasizing the lust-is-sin teachings of the Church.

[Mormon Red Death]

maybe we should be like the catholics. Donahue (you know the old talk show host) was talking about his catholic neighborhood growing up. The priest had told them when ever they had lustful thoughts or wanted to masturbate they should go out side and play basketball. then he said:

well every house had a hoop and boy were playing basketball constantly

[jay santos]

I think the best odds for having a healthy sexual being for a son is to emphasize respect for women and how wonderful shared experience experiences can be and deemphasizing the lust-is-sin teachings of the Church.

Totally agree.

[Mormon Red Death]

In Mormondom we teach very clearly that lusting in your heart is the actual equivalent of adultery (3 Ne. 12:28). We also teach that lusting alone is a denial of the faith leading to your being "cast out" (DC 42:23). The Miracle of Forgiveness--given to every boy who ever felt his girlfriend up and confessed to his bishop during the 80s and 90s--is very clear and dogmatic about this point.

The problem is that heterosexual boys are programmed biologically to lust for girls bodies. We get boners in our sleep and are aroused by boobs involuntarily. It can't be prevented and it isn't voluntary.

So the Church has taught us to avert our eyes and sing hymns when arousal comes. (http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...00176f620a____) This would seem highly likely to create a very odd association between sex and religion. Self-loathing and hatred of arousal is a common result. Lots of frustration at not being able to be righteous enough to resist this mortal sin. Anger at women for being the cause of your spiritual downfall can lead to misogyny.

The Church has seemed to step back from the psychological aversion techniques and degeneracy theory practices it advocated in the 80s and 90s. (Mark E. Peterson's "Steps to Overcoming Masturbation" being a classic in the field.)

But the legacy lives on. In my Elders' Quorum a while back a man going through a divorce taught a lesson on chastity. He said that he had honestly trained himself to be revolted by the sight of an attractive woman. He was proud that he had replaced lust with revulsion. I was not shocked to hear he was getting divorced. But at least he didn't have a masturbation problem--so success, right?

I believe there is a correlation between Mormon YM who take the Church's teachings regarding lust seriously and sexual dysfunction later in life. The degree to which you believe that feeling lust is adultery and will result in your being cast out is the degree to which you are going to be maladjusted sexually and struggle to have a positive healthy sexual relationship later in life.

I think the best odds for having a healthy sexual being for a son is to emphasize respect for women and how wonderful shared experience experiences can be and deemphasizing the lust-is-sin teachings of the Church.

Honestly I don't think men have a problem with this. I would say what you are talking about is more of a problem with women. the old "good girl" situation.

[jay santos]

The degree to which you believe that feeling lust is adultery and will result in your being cast out is the degree to which you are going to be maladjusted sexually and struggle to have a positive healthy sexual relationship later in life.

Honestly I don't think men have a problem with this. I would say what you are talking about is more of a problem with women. the old "good girl" situation.

I think Rambam nails it. And I think MRD is interpreting the problem of being sexually maladjusted and struggling to have positive healthy sexual relationship as being a frigidity issue. I think the way teenage boys get shamed into thinking their sexual desires are evil and perverted can cause them to evolve into a sexual dysfunction that is equal to the frigidity thing but in a completely different direction. Also, this is not unique to LDS culture.

[Mormon Red Death]

I think Rambam nails it. And I think MRD is interpreting the problem of being sexually maladjusted and struggling to have positive healthy sexual relationship as being a frigidity issue. I think the way teenage boys get shamed into thinking their sexual desires are evil and perverted can cause them to evolve into a sexual dysfunction that is equal to the frigidity thing but in a completely different direction. Also, this is not unique to LDS culture.

I am not saying it can't I am just saying it probably more prevalent in women than in men.

[pellegrino]

lust is a wonderful thing. eom.

[Jacob]

In Mormondom we teach very clearly that lusting in your heart is the actual equivalent of adultery (3 Ne. 12:28). We also teach that lusting alone is a denial of the faith leading to your being "cast out" (DC 42:23).
...

I believe there is a correlation between Mormon YM who take the Church's teachings regarding lust seriously and sexual dysfunction later in life. The degree to which you believe that feeling lust is adultery and will result in your being cast out is the degree to which you are going to be maladjusted sexually and struggle to have a positive healthy sexual relationship later in life.
...
I think the best odds for having a healthy sexual being for a son is to emphasize respect for women and how wonderful shared experience experiences can be and deemphasizing the lust-is-sin teachings of the Church.

I suppose that depends on how you define lust. Sometimes, lust can be a simile for attraction. Attraction is entirely natural and not frowned upon. Modern love is almost indistinguishable from lust, with people constantly falling in and out of it. And feeling a girl up is no longer lust, it has crossed the line into something else. You have cited a scripture that is almost indistinguishable from Jesus' teaching in the NT as proof that LDS have a less healthy view of lust than other Christians. I don't think that is fair. And I don't think it is fair to conclude that the church's teaching re: lust and being cast out include mere attraction or the lustful thoughts of the natural man. This really bad lust must be something more than that. I'm certain most bishops would agree with me on that point or they would condemn themselves.

I doubt you have a scintilla of evidence of your claim in the second paragraph posted above. Is there even any reason to believe that faithful Mormon Americans men experience sexual dysfunction at a rate higher than the national norm? I doubt it, but maybe you've seen studies. Even if you do, I'm guessing you've no way to link it to the church's teachings re: lust.

As to your last point. It seems like good advice to me. However, it is unlikely to do much good in the long run. Kids turn into their own people as adults and I don't believe parents affect it as much as we'd like to think. Teach him lust is evil or teach him to be respectful. Teach him both or teach him neither. Choose any of those options and he is almost certain to have a "healthy sexual being" as an adult and it will have had little to do with what his parents told him when he was a teenager.

[Katy Lied]

Rambam on his favorite strategy: take something common to a wider audience (in this case, Christendom), narrowly redefine it as a mormon phenomenon, and then bewail the fact that we are so odd, so different than others, such misfits.

3 Nephi 12:28 is word-for-word in the New Testament, in the Sermon on the Mount.

Born Again Jimmy Carter referred to this very scripture when he made his infamous confession in Playboy Magazine that he had lusted after many women in his heart. So your correlation between young LDS boys can be broadened to any young christian boy, including catholics about which this issue is widely written.

If you want to talk about sexual dysfunction, you don't have to do it in the context of mormonism in order to discuss it on CUF.

[pellegrino]

Rambam on his favorite strategy: take something common to a wider audience (in this case, Christendom), narrowly redefine it as a mormon phenomenon, and then bewail the fact that we are so odd, so different than others, such misfits.

3 Nephi 12:28 is word-for-word in the New Testament, in the Sermon on the Mount.

Born Again Jimmy Carter referred to this very scripture when he made his infamous confession in Playboy Magazine that he had lusted after many women in his heart. So your correlation between young LDS boys can be broadened to any young christian boy, including catholics about which this issue is widely written.

If you want to talk about sexual dysfunction, you don't have to do it in the context of mormonism in order to discuss it on CUF.

while you are right about this being a Christian thing, I can see two reason for discussing it in a Mormon context.

First, is the fact that for Mormons, sex is an eternal principle called eternal increase. How else are we supposed to create all of these little spiritual children to populate the worlds we'll create if not though some sort of sexual act? Why the need for male and female in the eternities? After all, the same society we know in this life will continue into the next. Traditional Christianity views the sex drive as a temporary human condition that will end. We don't

Second, I think that it is common for Mormons, especially those who are unsatisfied with the dogma of traditional Christianity, to ask we we got things so wrong when we're supposed to be the ones with a prophet leading the way. We are so radical in some things, but then others (blacks and the priesthood, gender roles, etc.) we just toe the traditional line when it is apparent that the traditional line is either wrong or unnecessarily damaging.

[NorthwestUteFan]

The Miracle of Forgiveness--given to every boy who ever felt his girlfriend up and confessed to his bishop during the 80s and 90s--is very clear and dogmatic about this point.

Honestly I don't think men have a problem with this. I would say what you are talking about is more of a problem with women. the old "good girl" situation.

UGH. These two things are very highly related. According to Miracle of Forgiveness, Christ's sacrifice and grace is not entirely sufficient to overcome the loss of 'purity'. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, etc.

The 'sexual sin is second only to murder' mindset is horrible. We effectively tell the youth that 'rubbing one out' is second only to 'rubbing someone out' (in mobster parlance). What a horrbile thing to tell our kids! If you lust after somebody or punch the clown, you have committed a sin worse than knocking over a bank or burning down an orphanage.

Besides that, JS was a big-time swinger. It is somewhat ironic that the pendulum swung so far to the opposite side of the spectrum. I assume that, like rape, it is truly all about power.

[creekster]

while you are right about this being a Christian thing, I can see two reason for discussing it in a Mormon context.

First, is the fact that for Mormons, sex is an eternal principle called eternal increase. How else are we supposed to create all of these little spiritual children to populate the worlds we'll create if not though some sort of sexual act? Why the need for male and female in the eternities? After all, the same society we know in this life will continue into the next. Traditional Christianity views the sex drive as a temporary human condition that will end. We don't

Second, I think that it is common for Mormons, especially those who are unsatisfied with the dogma of traditional Christianity, to ask we we got things so wrong when we're supposed to be the ones with a prophet leading the way. We are so radical in some things, but then others (blacks and the priesthood, gender roles, etc.) we just toe the traditional line when it is apparent that the traditional line is either wrong or unnecessarily damaging.

As to your first point, it is sheer speculation. To say that enjoying the same society means we will be lustful and engage in intercourse as we do now in order to populate future worlds may be your opinion but no one knows this. As resurrected and perfected beings I think it makes much more sense that we would see things very differently (IOW, different impulses, completely changed motivations unburdened by temporal biological urges, etc) than we do now. Besides, even assuming your speculation, this doesn't change the fact that the teaching for THIS LIFE is not unique to Mormonism and it is in issues of this life, after all, that Rambam's most recent sally is made

As to your second point, this was discussed at some length in the thread about prophets. But here your premise is infallibility when you would be quick to deny it elsewhere. You cant really have it both ways, can you? And if this then becomes an issue of fallibility, then it collapses and is no longer a unique teaching for a unique reason. Finally, I think this issue is, if anything, as bad or worse among other Christian evangelicals. And don't forget the catholic ascetics and their hair shirts. This is not our problem alone. To the extent it exists it is Christian, not Mormon.

.

[Jacob]

UGH. These two things are very highly related. According to Miracle of Forgiveness, Christ's sacrifice and grace is not entirely sufficient to overcome the loss of 'purity'. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, etc.

The 'sexual sin is second only to murder' mindset is horrible. We effectively tell the youth that 'rubbing one out' is second only to 'rubbing someone out' (in mobster parlance). What a horrbile thing to tell our kids! If you lust after somebody or punch the clown, you have committed a sin worse than knocking over a bank or burning down an orphanage.

Besides that, JS was a big-time swinger. It is somewhat ironic that the pendulum swung so far to the opposite side of the spectrum. I assume that, like rape, it is truly all about power.

What an offensive and absurd post.

[NorthwestUteFan]

What an offensive and absurd post.

Go read Miracle of Forgiveness again, and try to understand why Christians don't believe Mos are 'Christian'. That book does not seem to fully believe in the forgiving, 'go your way and sin no more', Jesus.

[TripletDaddy]

The 'sexual sin is second only to murder' mindset is horrible. We effectively tell the youth that 'rubbing one out' is second only to 'rubbing someone out'

that is a funny quote.