Why Mormons Leave

[jay santos]

But not the one the sociologists use. That is not a criticism of how the church is reporting, necessarily, but it is obvious that one method tells you a lot more about what is really happening than the other right?

One is active members, one is total members. Both give you insight into what is happening, as long as they are consistently defined and you can trend them.

[Portland Ute]

One is active members, one is total members. Both give you insight into what is happening, as long as they are consistently defined and you can trend them.

Might not there be some that self-identify as Mormons but are not "active"?

[jay santos]

What is the bigger issue at play here? I'm trying to figure out why it matters whether the Church's membership really comprises .2% of the global population or if it is, in actuality, only approximately .14%.

The issue I think is growth. One method suggests moderate growth. The other method suggests flat or shrinking.

[NorthwestUteFan]

What is the bigger issue at play here? I'm trying to figure out why it matters whether the Church's membership really comprises .2% of the global population or if it is, in actuality, only approximately .14%.

If President Monson gets up in conference and says, "We have cleaned off our books and now we show 9 million members", there would be widespread panic in the church by the dissonance caused by the claim that the church will 'expand to fill the earth' and the data that it is much smaller than previously claimed, and is arguably stagnant in growth.

That podcast mentions a greater emphasis in recent years of reporting the number of new temples which are dedicated, over strict membership and branch/ward/stake unit numbers.

[Non Sequitur]

What if a person didn't believe their salvation was at stake?

But that's really the only reason people leave...the Church no longer matters. The reasons people stay, though, are a lot more complicated, since a lot of people stay in the Church who no longer believe.

[SoonerCoug]

Well, SU would definitely fall into that category.

However, having spent some time on CUF, I would gather there are several participating/active/self-identifying members here that don't necessarily believe the LDS church is the sole gateway to eternal salvation.

There are even some who don't believe there is such a thing as eternal salvation (or damnation for that matter).

[Jeff Lebowski]

If President Monson gets up in conference and says, "We have cleaned off our books and now we show 9 million members", there would be widespread panic in the church by the dissonance caused by the claim that the church will 'expand to fill the earth' and the data that it is much smaller than previously claimed, and is arguably stagnant in growth.

You really think the general church membership is so clueless that they don't realize that many of the members of record are completely inactive, and so fragile that something like this would be shattering?

[NorthwestUteFan]

Well, SU would definitely fall into that category.

However, having spent some time on CUF, I would gather there are several participating/active/self-identifying members here that don't necessarily believe the LDS church is the sole gateway to eternal salvation.

I have known a number of active members who believed exactly zero of the church's 'truth' claims but attend every week and even hold callings (usualy non-teaching positions such as greeter, chorister, Scoutmaster, etc).

I have also known people who absolutely believed everything and paid a full tithing, but would never step a foot inside a church building for whatever reason. My mother's uncle was like this. He smoked 2-3 packs a day until the day he died of emphasema and couldn't stand to go because he smelled so bad (in his mind). But he paid a full tithing, had the YM bring the sacrement into his home every week, and would purchase a new suit for every young man in his ward who was leaving on a mission.

[DapperDan]

You really think the general church membership is so clueless that they don't realize that many of the members of record are completely inactive, and so fragile that something like this would be shattering?

Only the ones that are secretly sinning and need an excuse to leave.

[TripletDaddy]

If President Monson gets up in conference and says, "We have cleaned off our books and now we show 9 million members", there would be widespread panic in the church by the dissonance caused by the claim that the church will 'expand to fill the earth' and the data that it is much smaller than previously claimed, and is arguably stagnant in growth.

That podcast mentions a greater emphasis in recent years of reporting the number of new temples which are dedicated, over strict membership and branch/ward/stake unit numbers.

Really? Sorry, I don't see that. I don't see much panic, if any at all. When looking at a global inventory, the Church might be off as much as .05 hundredths of a percent. That seems immaterial to me. What do people want? A real-time running count on the LDS.org website? (yes, that would be a cool idea)

At best, the Church's global membership equates to .2% of the entire world's population. If people are using any growth stats as evidence of divinity, they are grasping at straws and are missing the point. To me, the cultural "cover the Earth" stuff does not mean that every person will be a baptized member of the Church. It simply means that the Gospel will be available all over the Earth. I think the Church is getting there in leaps and bounds (but still has work to do, of course).

The veracity of the Church cannot hinge on membership numbers. At one point not too long ago, there were only 6 members.

[NorthwestUteFan]

You really think the general church membership is so clueless that they don't realize that many of the members of record are completely inactive, and so fragile that something like this would be shattering?

Before you roll your eyes and dismiss my statement, give me the percentage who YOU believe would be affected by such a revelation. I am not saying they will leave, but such a revelation would be very painful for a large number of members.

It probably wouldn't greatly shock the majority of members, but a good 25% - 35% of the active members would be disturbed by such an adjustment.

[Portland Ute]

But that's really the only reason people leave...the Church no longer matters. The reasons people stay, though, are a lot more complicated, since a lot of people stay in the Church who no longer believe.

I suppose you could be right, but I would bet a lot fewer would leave if the monetary cost, time required, underwear and WoW requirements didn't "cost" so much. Other "costs" can begin to mount...family discord, bad relationships with other members....perhaps most importantly, cognitive dissonance and psychological fatigue.

I think people do leave for several reasons, the church no longer mattering being just one of them. Some marry outside of the faith and believe but quit participating to keep the peace, some truly do get offended by leaders and or other members and just don't want to worship with those people, others may face other social pressures but still believe.

Simply put, because of higher "costs" to be an orthodox Mormon, I believe the threshold for the "benefits" is higher. Add in some additional costs like family pressures, being amogst people you don't get along with, etc. OR lowering the perceived benefits results in a person leaving.

The thing is this: Degree of belief greatly impacts the perceived benefits of being part of the LDS group. If a member is "all in", then there is not cost that would outweigh the benefit of membership. None

[Portland Ute]

I have known a number of active members who believed exactly zero of the church's 'truth' claims but attend every week and even hold callings (usualy non-teaching positions such as greeter, chorister, Scoutmaster, etc).

I have also known people who absolutely believed everything and paid a full tithing, but would never step a foot inside a church building for whatever reason. My mother's uncle was like this. He smoked 2-3 packs a day until the day he died of emphasema and couldn't stand to go because he smelled so bad (in his mind). But he paid a full tithing, had the YM bring the sacrement into his home every week, and would purchase a new suit for every young man in his ward who was leaving on a mission.

I think both types of people will be rewarded handsomely in the next life if there is a next life.

[Indy Coug]

Before you roll your eyes and dismiss my statement, give me the percentage who YOU believe would be affected by such a revelation. I am not saying they will leave, but such a revelation would be very painful for a large number of members.

It probably wouldn't greatly shock the majority of members, but a good 25% - 35% of the active members would be disturbed by such an adjustment.

My guess is the fallout from a radical adjustment like this would be more "marginalized" or "disaffected" members screaming about this as proof about the church's retrenchment and lack of outreach than "true blue Mormons" gasping really loudly.

[jay santos]

Before you roll your eyes and dismiss my statement, give me the percentage who YOU believe would be affected by such a revelation. I am not saying they will leave, but such a revelation would be very painful for a large number of members.

It probably wouldn't greatly shock the majority of members, but a good 25% - 35% of the active members would be disturbed by such an adjustment.

Describe the person that would be shocked by this. The 25% of LDS members. age? RM? education level? convert or BIC?

I'm trying to think of anyone that would be "shocked" by such a revelation. Even the most ridiculous caricatures, I think would be fine.

Any RM would understand the nature of convert baptisms and how so many go inactive. Anyone outside of Utah would understand the nature of having a ward list of a bunch of people that don't even consider themselves Mormon. Anyone with any sort of education or paying attention remotely would understand there's quite a large retention problem in other countries.