Newordermormon.org

[Indy Coug]

Lol. I hope you're right, Indy.

I don't think that local leaders are out to increase tithing receipts. But, the fact that the higher-ups do speak about tithing and make it a requirement to temple attendance, and even go so far as to create a "settlement" meeting that local leaders don't know the purpose for makes me wonder a bit.

I just don't have enough faith.

Results vary widely from unit to unit because the church allows for a large degree of autonomy. It's impossible to say what one ward/bishop will do based on your own personal experiences.

I think attitudes about tithing are probably highly correlated with that person's view of the church as it pertains to being the Kingdom of God, particularly as we look to the Millennium and beyond.

1/10th of $0.02...

[Goatnapper'96]

Interesting that when you compare the two you don't get blasted for it like I did.

You may be an asshole but you are the ex-mos asshole damnit!

CJ learn from Bealbazbabettes experience: I am untouchable.

[Non Sequitur]

I have participated in countless Ward Council meetings and other auxiliary meetings (YM, priesthood, etc.) where inactive members were discussed. I don't recall a single instance where lost tithing revenue was mentioned, even in the most remote sense. Perhaps I missed something.

When my son turned 8, I was semi-active with no TR. My son wanted me to baptize him, but my bishop told me I couldn't because I was not a full tithe payer. He didn't say it was because I wasn't a temple recommend holder, he said it was because I wasn't a full tithe-payer. We got into a bit of a heated exchange, and he eventually let me baptize my son, but you can't tell me that Church leaders aren't concerned with tithing revenues.

[Green Monstah]

Results vary widely from unit to unit because the church allows for a large degree of autonomy. It's impossible to say what one ward/bishop will do based on your own personal experiences.

I think attitudes about tithing are probably highly correlated with that person's view of the church as it pertains to being the Kingdom of God, particularly as we look to the Millennium and beyond.

1/10th of $0.02...

FTR, I actually believe I'm blessed by paying tithing, so I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here. I know people who have a hard time with tithing, and I sympathize with their concerns.

[jay santos]

I think what Rambam says is technically accurate.

If you don't pay your tithing, you won't get your TR. You likely will end up released from significant calling and/or not considered for a future significant (depends on where you live and how desperate they are for warm bodies though i guess). You likely will end up a project. The percentage of endowed members with current recommends is one of the key metrics that the Bishop and ward council will focus on. So yes, you will be in that group. If all this makes you uncomfortable (and i wouldn't blame anyone for that), then not paying your tithing will significantly lower your enjoyment in participating in the church.

But what JL says about correlation/causation is also right. Blowing off any one of a dozen sins will earn you a TR interview fail, resulting in all of the above. So yeah tithing will do it. But it's more accurate to say tithing is part of a holistic view of what the brethren have defined as being temple worthy. And the loss of your TR is what's going to throw you into that mess.

[Goatnapper'96]

That's a fair point. I've never been part of any such councils, and I'm glad that's the case.

I'm sure Vandelay probably can't chime in on this, but I'd be interested to see to what extent being a full tithe payer is considered in determining whether a person is made a ward "project". Maybe it never happens, which is great. Or, maybe it's not explicitly stated and veiled language is used: "Bro X let his TR expire, can you send the HTs out to see if there are any issues?" or "I sense Sis Y's is having a crisis of faith. I think we should release her from the RS Presidency while she works things out"

On my mish, there was an early morning seminary teacher who the kids loved and who loved to teach the kids. Her husband's business fell on hard times, they stopped paying tithing, they didn't get new TRs, she was released immediately, and was so hurt that she and her family stopped coming. Now, there may be many reasons for their inactivity, but I felt that her experience was unfair and damaging. What's the motivation behind it? If it's really to create superMormons, worthy of celestial glory, so be it. The cynic inside me has difficulty pushing away the idea that love of money has nothing to do with it.

What extent tithing is a concern wrt ward projects? Sometimes I wonder what Church you folks attend. I get many of you don't like the tithing issue concerning temple recommend. I can see your point but to just ask what I think any lucid adult mormon should know is nonsensical bullshit amazes me.

Trust me, I have been involved in picking projects never once did we even remotely discuss which efforts would be more likely to increase tithing coffers. In fact in my experience the po folk are more disproportionately represented and getting involved with them leads to outflows increasing more significantly than inflows, and by golly that is ok with me!

You have the right to make tithing a much bigger deal than it is and you can pull string about how it affects TR "worthiness," but in the end all of these issues, including tithing declaration, are individual declarations between a person and God. The Bishop is just there as a formality. Other than SoonerCougar I think most Bishops just ask the question and then check the appropriate box on the piece of paper so if you want to give your tithing to Habitat for Humanity you probably can you neworderingmormonfool!

[Portland Ute]

Until they don't pay 10% into the pot. Then they are not accepted just fine. They are denied a Temple recommend and then denied any significant calling and then put on the ward "project" list and then questioned about their faith and so on and so forth.

As long as your struggle doesn't interfere with the cash flow, you are accepted just fine.

Absolutely untrue.

I don't have a temple recommend but I have a calling. I am the ward financial clerk.

Does that qualify as "significant"? I don't know and I certainly don't care. I'd be just as happy with no calling to be honest.

I have also not been put on a "project" list. At least as far as I can tell. No extra interviews with the bishop. No extra phone calls from the Elders Quorum president. No bishopric visits. No odd "service projects."

I've been treated the same recently as I was 2, 4 or 6 years ago.

The bishop knows my feelings and struggles. So does the 2nd counselor. I'm sure the stake presidency does at some level, too, because they were the ones that recently called me to be the ward financial clerk.

While I sympathize quite a bit with your POV and those of athiestcougar, UtahDan, etc., I think a lot of "non-traditional" Mormons have problems because they have a chip on their shoulder.

The fact of the matter with tithing is that you can nearly completely skirt the issue by paying (or not paying) directly to the Corporation of the Church and bypassing the ward level. You can then declare (or not) your tithe as you like.

My experience has been that if you are honest about your feelings without being an ass to other ward members and leaders and participate at the level you want, you will be accepted. I might not think everything taught is reality, but I've really tried to take up chances for true service to other ward members and neighbors and if I accept a calling, I try to do my best. Nobdody has said boo.

I laugh when folks "like us" talk about "the harm it caused me."

Grow up. The LDS church can't harm you if you don't allow it to harm you. Take some responsibility for your life. People and organizations to which you voluntarily belong can only "harm" you if YOU ALLOW them to harm you. Nobody holds a gun to your head to make you come to church, pay tithing or hold a calling. Nobody can make you there project if you are clear, polite and direct that you do not want to be a project.

[Jeff Lebowski]

When my son turned 8, I was semi-active with no TR. My son wanted me to baptize him, but my bishop told me I couldn't because I was not a full tithe payer. He didn't say it was because I wasn't a temple recommend holder, he said it was because I wasn't a full tithe-payer. We got into a bit of a heated exchange, and he eventually let me baptize my son, but you can't tell me that Church leaders aren't concerned with tithing revenues.

I don't know your bishop, but I suspect (like many LDS) that he views tithe-paying as a core, fundamental commandment and for him is part of a litmus test of worthiness. I have a hard time believing that he was worried about meeting some sort of cash-flow quota.

Look, I get it that one has to pay tithing in order to punch that worthiness ticket that is the key to full integration. That makes me uncomfortable too. But I think it simply evolved that way and I have never had an experience in the church or met a leader that would lead me to believe that their primary concern with inactives is lost revenue.

[Goatnapper'96]

When my son turned 8, I was semi-active with no TR. My son wanted me to baptize him, but my bishop told me I couldn't because I was not a full tithe payer. He didn't say it was because I wasn't a temple recommend holder, he said it was because I wasn't a full tithe-payer. We got into a bit of a heated exchange, and he eventually let me baptize my son, but you can't tell me that Church leaders aren't concerned with tithing revenues.

I think they are more concerned with obedience than $. What I believe he was concerned about was changing you into the image he thinks is what mankind should be.

I notice that in the end cooler heads prevailed, but hey take away from it that you are the victim in the mormon church's ponzi scheme of life!

[Flystripper]

I think they are more concerned with obedience than $. What I believe he was concerned about was changing you into the image he thinks is what mankind should be.

I notice that in the end cooler heads prevailed, but hey take away from it that you are the victim in the mormon church's ponzi scheme of life!

It can't be a ponzi scheme. My family got in early and signed up a bunch of people and reaped no benefits!

[Portland Ute]

It can't be a ponzi scheme. My family got in early and signed up a bunch of people and reaped no benefits!

LOL!

[cougjunkie]

What extent tithing is a concern wrt ward projects? Sometimes I wonder what Church you folks attend. I get many of you don't like the tithing issue concerning temple recommend. I can see your point but to just ask what I think any lucid adult mormon should know is nonsensical bullshit amazes me.

Trust me, I have been involved in picking projects never once did we even remotely discuss which efforts would be more likely to increase tithing coffers. In fact in my experience the po folk are more disproportionately represented and getting involved with them leads to outflows increasing more significantly than inflows, and by golly that is ok with me!

You have the right to make tithing a much bigger deal than it is and you can pull string about how it affects TR "worthiness," but in the end all of these issues, including tithing declaration, are individual declarations between a person and God. The Bishop is just there as a formality. Other than SoonerCougar I think most Bishops just ask the question and then check the appropriate box on the piece of paper so if you want to give your tithing to Habitat for Humanity you probably can you neworderingmormonfool!

Exactly the majority of the "projects" actually hurt the churchs bottom line due to the welfare system.. If they were going to pinpoint projects based on revenue stream why do we send our missionaries to poor countries? Wouldn't we be better off sending them all to the Hollywood hills? I bet if we landed Tom Cruise he would bring the church more revenue than the whole damn country of Ecuador.

[Goatnapper'96]

It can't be a ponzi scheme. My family got in early and signed up a bunch of people and reaped no benefits!

Your descendents will one day make it back. There are ancestors already softening the hearts of your future grandkids and great grandkids.

When some things get to full erection, such as the standard of truth, just contact the doc now cuz it is gonna last for a long damn time!

The blessings will be reaped despite your present uhhhhh neck that is experiencing sudden flow of blood to the region.......

[Green Monstah]

Your descendents will one day make it back. There are ancestors already softening the hearts of your future grandkids and great grandkids.

When some things get to full erection, such as the standard of truth, just contact the doc now cuz it is gonna last for a long damn time!

The blessings will be reaped despite your present uhhhhh neck that is experiencing sudden flow of blood to the region.......

Holy shit, you're one of a kind.

[Portland Ute]

Your descendents will one day make it back. There are ancestors already softening the hearts of your future grandkids and great grandkids.

When some things get to full erection, such as the standard of truth, just contact the doc now cuz it is gonna last for a long damn time!

The blessings will be reaped despite your present uhhhhh neck that is experiencing sudden flow of blood to the region.......

Are you drunk?