Newordermormon.org

[Moliere]

very few can be happy in a society that views them as apostate, weak, and/or dangerous.

I don't think most people in the church view them as such. Sure the openly and consistently rebellious will be viewed and labeled as those things, but they should be. But the people that struggle, but still come to church and make an effort to fit in and hold a calling and just serve are accepted just fine.

[The Rambam]

I don't think most people in the church view them as such. Sure the openly and consistently rebellious will be viewed and labeled as those things, but they should be. But the people that struggle, but still come to church and make an effort to fit in and hold a calling and just serve are accepted just fine.

Until they don't pay 10% into the pot. Then they are not accepted just fine. They are denied a Temple recommend and then denied any significant calling and then put on the ward "project" list and then questioned about their faith and so on and so forth.

As long as your struggle doesn't interfere with the cash flow, you are accepted just fine.

[Goatnapper'96]

Until they don't pay 10% into the pot. Then they are not accepted just fine. They are denied a Temple recommend and then denied any significant calling and then put on the ward "project" list and then questioned about their faith and so on and so forth.

As long as your struggle doesn't interfere with the cash flow, you are accepted just fine.

Jesus still loves 'em!

[Green Monstah]

Until they don't pay 10% into the pot. Then they are not accepted just fine. They are denied a Temple recommend and then denied any significant calling and then put on the ward "project" list and then questioned about their faith and so on and so forth.

As long as your struggle doesn't interfere with the cash flow, you are accepted just fine.

This statement is closer to the truth than I'm comfortable with.

[SeattleUte]

Not everyone is a progressive Mormon.

It's an aspiration. No, actually, it's a gentle rebuke to Surfah who thinks that if you find it distasteful to just call yourself a Mormon, well, you should just get the hell out. Actually, I was just kidding, because I agree with Surfah. Progressive Mormons have no backbone.

[Jeff Lebowski]

This statement is closer to the truth than I'm comfortable with.

Come on. Correlation doesn't equal causation. I have my issues with the tithing-temple recommend connection, but one has to be an incredibly jaded cynic to believe that the entire active-LDS church membership is complicit in a cash-flow scam.

[cougjunkie]

It is hard to justify the paying of 10% of your income to a corporate entity that you don't think actually speaks for God. Once you stop paying the 10%, you lose your Temple recommend. Once you lose your recommend, you are a second-class member, a project, and all leadership opportunities are lost to you. Unless you are willing to stay in the Church with those limitations, you leave. The vast majority, finding themselves thus ostracized (by their own realizations/choices) do not wish to abide as second class citizens and leave.

It all starts with realizing that the President isn't necessarily a Prophet, pretty soon you don't want to fund massive land purchases in Nebraska or Swarovski Crystal shops in high end shopping centers, and it is a very slippery slope from there to out.

Very few can put the demons back in Pandora's box and very few can be happy in a society that views them as apostate, weak, and/or dangerous.

So you pay your 10% to John Dehlin instead! Good investment.

[cougjunkie]

Absolutely. I think John Dehlin is pretty much like every other human being whose individual motivations are a mixed bag.

I have no issues with John. I think Joseph Smith liked the catbird seat and I think JD does as well.

Interesting that when you compare the two you don't get blasted for it like I did.

You may be an asshole but you are the ex-mos asshole damnit!

[Green Monstah]

Come on. Correlation doesn't equal causation. I have my issues with the tithing-temple recommend connection, but one has to be an incredibly jaded cynic to believe that the entire active-LDS church membership is complicit in a cash-flow scam.

True. And yet, if I stop paying my tithing, Rambam's scenario plays out, seemingly without fail. That's what bother me, JL. We can say that "only a jaded, cynic would view the Church as a cash-flow scam", but if my cash dries up, so do certain privileges of membership. It's fine for an Elks Club, but it doesn't seem right for an organization purportedly led by the Almighty. That's why I said its more accurate than I'm comfortable with. I'd like to believe that the Church views tithing as being 100% about faith and not the cash flow, but the Church is run by humans, who have shown on countless occassions to care more about cash than faith, and to use faith as a means to acquire cash.

TR requirement plus Tithing Settlement (where people are hounded to come in for, even though I've never known a bishop who actually knows what its for) means that at one point in time the Church was very concerned about it's receipts. Maybe those were the steps needed to preserve the Church's solvency. If so, maybe it's time to change course a bit now that we are worth billions of dollars.

[Jeff Lebowski]

True. And yet, if I stop paying my tithing, Rambam's scenario plays out, seemingly without fail. That's what bother me, JL. We can say that "only a jaded, cynic would view the Church as a cash-flow scam", but if my cash dries up, so do certain privileges of membership. It's fine for an Elks Club, but it doesn't seem right for an organization purportedly led by the Almighty. That's why I said its more accurate than I'm comfortable with. I'd like to believe that the Church views tithing as being 100% about faith and not the cash flow, but the Church is run by humans, who have shown on countless occassions to care more about cash than faith, and to use faith as a means to acquire cash.

TR requirement plus Tithing Settlement (where people are hounded to come in for, even though I've never known a bishop who actually knows what its for) means that at one point in time the Church was very concerned about it's receipts. Maybe those were the steps needed to preserve the Church's solvency. If so, maybe it's time to change course a bit now that we are worth billions of dollars.

I get your point, but let's look at how this hijack got started:

Until they don't pay 10% into the pot. Then they are not accepted just fine. They are denied a Temple recommend and then denied any significant calling and then put on the ward "project" list and then questioned about their faith and so on and so forth.

As long as your struggle doesn't interfere with the cash flow, you are accepted just fine.

I have participated in countless Ward Council meetings and other auxiliary meetings (YM, priesthood, etc.) where inactive members were discussed. I don't recall a single instance where lost tithing revenue was mentioned, even in the most remote sense. Perhaps I missed something.

[Green Monstah]

I get your point, but let's look at how this hijack got started:



I have participated in countless Ward Council meetings and other auxiliary meetings (YM, priesthood, etc.) where inactive members were discussed. I don't recall a single instance where lost tithing revenue was mentioned, even in the most remote sense. Perhaps I missed something.

That's a fair point. I've never been part of any such councils, and I'm glad that's the case.

I'm sure Vandelay probably can't chime in on this, but I'd be interested to see to what extent being a full tithe payer is considered in determining whether a person is made a ward "project". Maybe it never happens, which is great. Or, maybe it's not explicitly stated and veiled language is used: "Bro X let his TR expire, can you send the HTs out to see if there are any issues?" or "I sense Sis Y's is having a crisis of faith. I think we should release her from the RS Presidency while she works things out"

On my mish, there was an early morning seminary teacher who the kids loved and who loved to teach the kids. Her husband's business fell on hard times, they stopped paying tithing, they didn't get new TRs, she was released immediately, and was so hurt that she and her family stopped coming. Now, there may be many reasons for their inactivity, but I felt that her experience was unfair and damaging. What's the motivation behind it? If it's really to create superMormons, worthy of celestial glory, so be it. The cynic inside me has difficulty pushing away the idea that love of money has nothing to do with it.

[Flystripper]

What do you mean by "Mormon"? Doctrinal or ethnicity? I identify strongly as a Mormon ethnically. I do not strongly identify as Mormon doctrinally when I am honest about it - which is admittedly rare.

I still identify with Mormons. I have Zion's Camp roots after all. I just don't believe it anymore. Many of the people close to me still believe, and I respect my relationship with these people enough to avoid getting into it with them. When I visit my mom I even go to sacrament meeting because I know she wants me to. I love her, and so what if I spend and hour or two participating in somthing I don't believe in if it makes her happy for an hour or two. We have talked about my faith. She knows I don't believe, but she also knows I love and respect her. My loss of faith is difficult for her so I try and ease her pain as best I can wile still remaining true to myself. I am happy and at peace with where I am at on my spiritual journey.

I don't go to any Mormon discussion websites, and I don't listen or subscribe to Dehlin or similar people. I don't do podcasts or facebook with exmo groups. The only way that I know about what these people ever say is when I read about it here. In fact, the only place that I read other people's opinions about Mormons and Mormonism is this website, and I only participate in these discussions because there are times when sports discussion is slow. I like the people of this board and I like hearing their point of view. I just have a hard time getting myself all riled up about Mormonism and its issues anymore.

[Indy Coug]

I'm sure Vandelay probably can't chime in on this, but I'd be interested to see to what extent being a full tithe payer is considered in determining whether a person is made a ward "project". Maybe it never happens, which is great. Or, maybe it's not explicitly stated and veiled language is used: "Bro X let his TR expire, can you send the HTs out to see if there are any issues?" or "I sense Sis Y's is having a crisis of faith. I think we should release her from the RS Presidency while she works things out"

On my mish, there was an early morning seminary teacher who the kids loved and who loved to teach the kids. Her husband's business fell on hard times, they stopped paying tithing, they didn't get new TRs, she was released immediately, and was so hurt that she and her family stopped coming. Now, there may be many reasons for their inactivity, but I felt that her experience was unfair and damaging. What's the motivation behind it? If it's really to create superMormons, worthy of celestial glory, so be it. The cynic inside me has difficulty pushing away the idea that love of money has nothing to do with it.

Tithe-paying isn't used to determine who is the ward project. However as for people that view tithing as a cash-flow scam or that Joseph Smith was offed by God for his sinful ways....

[Green Monstah]

I still identify with Mormons. I have Zion's Camp roots after all. I just don't believe it anymore. Many of the people close to me still believe, and I respect my relationship with these people enough to avoid getting into it with them. When I visit my mom I even go to sacrament meeting because I know she wants me to. I love her, and so what if I spend and hour or two participating in somthing I don't believe in if it makes her happy for an hour or two. We have talked about my faith. She knows I don't believe, but she also knows I love and respect her. My loss of faith is difficult for her so I try and ease her pain as best I can wile still remaining true to myself. I am happy and at peace with where I am at on my spiritual journey.

I don't go to any Mormon discussion websites, and I don't listen or subscribe to Dehlin or similar people. I don't do podcasts or facebook with exmo groups. The only way that I know about what these people ever say is when I read about it here. In fact, the only place that I read other people's opinions about Mormons and Mormonism is this website, and I only participate in these discussions because there are times when sports discussion is slow. I like the people of this board and I like hearing their point of view. I just have a hard time getting myself all riled up about Mormonism and its issues anymore.

You're a good son, even if you are a degenerate gambler.

My mom does the same for me (she's the exmo in the scenario), and it means a lot to me.

[Green Monstah]

Tithe-paying isn't used to determine who is the ward project. However as for people that view tithing as a cash-flow scam or that Joseph Smith was offed by God for his sinful ways....

Lol. I hope you're right, Indy.

I don't think that local leaders are out to increase tithing receipts. But, the fact that the higher-ups do speak about tithing and make it a requirement to temple attendance, and even go so far as to create a "settlement" meeting that local leaders don't know the purpose for makes me wonder a bit.

I just don't have enough faith.