Friend and tithing

[woot]

It seems to me that on these sorts of issues the church doesn't tend to care too much about scripture, but rather rely completely on how it was interpreted by later prophets.

The WoW is a great example. I recently read a book in which Mormons were cited as having one of the highest levels of meat consumption in the world, and were therefore useful in the testing of hypotheses related to meat-consumption. That they are specifically told to avoid meat except in times of famine doesn't matter, because that part was edited out of the WoW by later prophets. Similarly, JS's original wording of the tithing commandment probably doesn't matter much.

[woot]

The last two years I was in the church, I did not pay tithing. If I paid tithing, my wife would have had to work to make up the difference. She got tired of not being at home for the kids. So she quit working to be home for them (well, that and cheat with anything with two legs and a penis). We met with the bishop and told him this and he didn't take it well. We walked into tithing settlement that year and proudly proclaimed I considered us full tithe payers. He chafed, but signed it anyway.

This isn't any of my business, but I bet there's a good story there if your ex was banging amputees behind your back.

[Moliere]

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I'm going to say this anyway. I think that the concept of "one thing is taught in public, but there is a truer, more secret thing that we can tell some people privately" is a really, really strange concept. Really strange. Why can't a mouthpiece of God just straightforwardly declare what is expected on an important issue like tithing? Because it might offend some people? The church is not bashful about giving offense on other issues, so I don't think that is it.

You're not being a dick, but saying something we probably all think, or at least I share your thought. The day I stopped caring about the unwritten order of things was a good day. Every movement or club has a sub culture, but a subset of rules that aren't even known by the majority of the members is just weird.

[Moliere]

This isn't any of my business, but I bet there's a good story there if your ex was banging amputees behind your back.

Or Siamese twins.

[Green Monstah]

Something about the idea that the Church would demand that 100% of a 10% tithe must be paid to the Church doesn't sit well with me. Luckily, all of my ecclesiastical leaders have been very laid back about tithing and have refused to give hard-and-fast definitions. OTOH, it seems like failure to draw a bright line causes a lot of people heart burn for instances where they're using their resources for good.

Personally, I pay a net tithe on my regular paychecks. Any excess (tax returns, bonuses, etc.) I give to my two preferred charities (one is BYU-related; the other is the cystic fibrosis foundation). It works for me, and I don't think God cares one bit either way, but I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm solid terrestrial material anyhow.

[Mormon Red Death]

You're not being a dick, but saying something we probably all think, or at least I share your thought. The day I stopped caring about the unwritten order of things was a good day. Every movement or club has a sub culture, but a subset of rules that aren't even known by the majority of the members is just weird.

so if I may ask do you pay on gross, net or surplus?

[DapperDan]

I love how so much of the Church doctrine/practice is officially unofficial?

- We believe the bible to be the word of God as long as it is translated corrected...and is the Kings James Version.

Hah. One of my personal favorites is how anything in the Bible that is disagreed with is a translation error.

[pellegrino]

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I'm going to say this anyway. I think that the concept of "one thing is taught in public, but there is a truer, more secret thing that we can tell some people privately" is a really, really strange concept. Really strange. Why can't a mouthpiece of God just straightforwardly declare what is expected on an important issue like tithing? Because it might offend some people? The church is not bashful about giving offense on other issues, so I don't think that is it.

whether or not it's done intentionally I can't say, but the church benefits from such double speak. They have to make official statements like the one found in the handbook to avoid contradicting the meaning and intent of DC 119 but they benefit greatly from members believing that what they really mean is that you pay from your gross.

[Northwestcoug]

In practice, the church teaches that tithes must be paid on IRS gross income. Bishops, SS teachers, EQ presidents, and Ask Gramps teach this and GAs do too. I was in a gospel doctrine class where Elder Eyring visited (it was his granddaughter's ward) and he took over the class and opened it up for Q&A. We were all obviously excited for the opportunity. He spoke of tithing and said something like this: "the law is 10% of your increase and we don't get into the gross v net debate. By the way, it's gross." (I didn't think much of it at the time). I think that's "the church's" unofficial, official position (or would it be the official, unofficial position?). Members are to pay 10% of all their gross income, but they are asked only to declare themselves a full tithe payer. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. That's just the way I see it.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I'm going to say this anyway. I think that the concept of "one thing is taught in public, but there is a truer, more secret thing that we can tell some people privately" is a really, really strange concept. Really strange. Why can't a mouthpiece of God just straightforwardly declare what is expected on an important issue like tithing? Because it might offend some people? The church is not bashful about giving offense on other issues, so I don't think that is it.

Ah, but tithing clearly is spelled out for us, if only you had family home evening more often!

http://lds.org/hf/library/0,16866,4530-1,00.html?LibraryURL=/Curriculum/home+and+family.htm/family+home+evening+resource+book.htm/lesson+ideas.htm/tithing.htm

"Discuss the following attitudes and decide on the right solution:
1. A man once said, "I pay tithing on all my salary after deductions, since I don't get the money that is taken for taxes." Is he correct? (Tithing is one-tenth of all our interest or increase, before anything else is taken out. See D&C 119:4.)"


Some other choice quotes from the church-approved FMH manual:

"Read the following experience of a sixteen-year-old girl:
"My dad and mother are good people, and I love them very much. We have family prayer but not very often any more because Mom and Dad are always fighting about money. We have lots of bills to pay each month, and my dad is working two jobs to make more money. I am wondering if it is all right for me, since I have a job at a drive-in, to give my money to my mother and skip tithing for a while?' " (John H. Vandenberg, in Conference Report, Oct. 1966, p. 66; or Improvement Era, Dec. 1966, p. 1123.)

- What counsel would you give to this sixteen-year-old girl? (Pay your tithing first, and you will be blessed in helping your family.)


"The following game can stimulate discussion on the law of tithing.
Members of the family or empty chairs can represent these various businesses or expenditures. Prepare play money totaling $550 and give it to the child when he returns to the room.

Give him a list of monthly payments to be made, as follows:

Rent or house payment, $300

Groceries, $60

Service station, $40

Insurance, $30

Car payment, $76

Tithes and offerings (Tithing, $55; Fast offering, $7; Budget, $10)

Tell him to pay his bills as fast as he can. Observe what happens, and discuss the situation. There is not enough money to pay all of the bills and still pay a full tithing. What should he do?

Point out that you pay tithing first, and then you pay a portion of what you owe on each other bill. Talk about which areas you might be able to cut expenses in so that you can live within your budget. Paying the Lord first ensures his help and blessings in being able to budget the rest of your money successfully."


The concept, current interpretation, and practical aspects of tithing have become a sore spot for me, so I'm not in the most faithful mood to discuss it. But I think the thrust of this FMH lesson is just wrong. I promise I'm not going to reference City Creek Mall here . But if the church ran on a shoestring budget, I would be more comfortable with the teaching that the faithful paying of tithing supercedes all other budgeting. As it stands, I won't be teaching my children that you should potentially harm your credit rating by paying 10% of your gross income to the church first.

[Moliere]

so if I may ask do you pay on gross, net or surplus?

I pay one-tenth of my interest annually

But I also pay using the direct pay method so no one in my home ward or stake has any idea how much I pay, not even my bishop.

[Moliere]

Ah, but tithing clearly is spelled out for us, if only you had family home evening more often!

http://lds.org/hf/library/0,16866,4530-1,00.html?LibraryURL=/Curriculum/home+and+family.htm/family+home+evening+resource+book.htm/lesson+ideas.htm/tithing.htm

"Discuss the following attitudes and decide on the right solution:
1. A man once said, "I pay tithing on all my salary after deductions, since I don't get the money that is taken for taxes." Is he correct? (Tithing is one-tenth of all our interest or increase, before anything else is taken out. See D&C 119:4.)"


Some other choice quotes from the church-approved FMH manual:

"Read the following experience of a sixteen-year-old girl:
"My dad and mother are good people, and I love them very much. We have family prayer but not very often any more because Mom and Dad are always fighting about money. We have lots of bills to pay each month, and my dad is working two jobs to make more money. I am wondering if it is all right for me, since I have a job at a drive-in, to give my money to my mother and skip tithing for a while?' " (John H. Vandenberg, in Conference Report, Oct. 1966, p. 66; or Improvement Era, Dec. 1966, p. 1123.).

These references fall so far down on my "House of Scripture" that I find them practically non-authoritative

[DrumNFeather]

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I'm going to say this anyway. I think that the concept of "one thing is taught in public, but there is a truer, more secret thing that we can tell some people privately" is a really, really strange concept. Really strange. Why can't a mouthpiece of God just straightforwardly declare what is expected on an important issue like tithing? Because it might offend some people? The church is not bashful about giving offense on other issues, so I don't think that is it.

Let's turn that around. How helpful would it be? I mean, you already have some here who have declared that "the church" doesn't need their money...and others who'll scream about the mall to all who will listen. While others pay on gross, or net, or deduct where they see fit etc...So where is the benefit? Perhaps we all just pay what we pay, declare ourselves to be full tithe payers based on our understanding of things, and then move on.

[Pelado]

Just got this email:

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If I decide to donate, should I deduct it from my tithing?

Also, per the statutory language of D&C 119, I pay 10% of all my interest income as tithing. And no, I don't invest much in bonds, CDs, or money market funds.

[Pheidippides]

These references fall so far down on my "House of Scripture" that I find them practically non-authoritative

Yes, to take your GAAP analogy to the legal sphere, I view them with about as much authority as I do the blatherings of local village elders in backwaters Botswana.

My hierarchy goes something like this:

1: My interpretation of the NT and BOM.
752: Everything else.

I realize just how incredibly narcissistic that is.

[Pheidippides]

Let's turn that around. How helpful would it be? I mean, you already have some here who have declared that "the church" doesn't need their money...and others who'll scream about the mall to all who will listen. While others pay on gross, or net, or deduct where they see fit etc...So where is the benefit? Perhaps we all just pay what we pay, declare ourselves to be full tithe payers based on our understanding of things, and then move on.

Yeah, this is kinda what I think.